rpschamp

I design down from hard mode (as in I start there and whatever happens in the lower difficulties as a result of that happens) and tbh in hard mode I expect that the player has those skills as a minimum. On normal which is like half damage input you can drop all of those skills without problem. This was really my only point. In the current and past versions, I considered saber/resist to be one of these functions like Heal Light, Protect Up, and Power Down that a player should have at minimum on hard mode, and by expanding access to saber spells, more teams could compete on the level for which the game was designed/intended. I also happen to really like this strategy; it incorporates more of the game's mechanics, and you have to be aware of your innate resistances and weaknesses in order to use it properly. BUT! I can now see that with increased access to after-battle Heal, Capstones, and other new additions, you're already adding increased customizability that should allow more teams to compete on hard mode. For example, I decided not to go with Fenrir Knight/Wanderer/Grand Divina in the current version because Magic Shield is too clunky to cast on all three players for random battles, and they didn't have access a saber/resist option. BUT, in 2.0, I may be able to run Fenrir Knight/Wanderer/Rune Master instead since there should be another after-battle heal option, I can use Fenrir Knight for in-battle heal, and Rune Master gives me access to an easy Flame Saber/resist option with Valkyrie Mail on Fenrir Knight to substitute for Protect Up during random battles. Problem solved :-) True, but there are three evil factions (sort of). Besides, there were multiple atrocities that were committed in the regular world, which is the root cause of Mana weakening in the first place. And above all else, I think "Sins" of Mana sounds cooler. It just... rolls off the tongue. By my recollection, each of the God Beast's (re-)designed A.I.s/gimmicks was originally conceived by Praetarius as based one of the Seven Deadly Sins: By my count, this makes seven sins already; the slaying of the Mana Goddess makes eight. However, the slaying of the Mana Goddess could be thought of the ultimate "Sin of Mana". Because the God Beasts are really the centerpiece of the game, I would probably go for "Sins" instead of "Sin", but I see reason for either. And, if it doesn't appear on the title screen, you can call it whatever you want :-) I hacked randomly on my keyboard, added vowels and dropped some letters until I could pronounce it. There's no deeper meaning. I love this. Let fate decide. Much better story than my handle....

By the way, where does the handle Praetarius come from, if you don't mind me asking? It has the ring of a Roman emperor to it.

I agree, I do tend to over-focus on things. This can be a fault; I tend to take things to their natural conclusion and then a little further. I apologize if I came across as pushy. I'm just coming from the perspective of someone who has been thinking about team building on this mod for the past few years. You know how these things go; certain skills get classified "essential" for team building. Heal Light, Protect Up, Power Down, Mind Up, Mind Down, etc. This restricts creativity as players tend to focus on creating only teams that have access to all or most of these skills. My main concern is that none of these skills should become too dominant in restricting team formation, to encourage player creativity. I know that you're thinking along the same lines too, by increasing options to access the after-battle heal for example, or by spreading out stat buffs/debuffs over the past few updates. Sometimes this tunnel-vision does result in an interesting idea. I do think a selectable saber spell could be a cool addition for some classes. Also, I did offer suggestions on several other mechanics; it's just that I tend to agree with what you have planned for most of these. But I will take your advice and try to think more broadly from now on :-) Mostly, I'm just really excited about your ideas for 2.0. Plus, my main computer is on the fritz, so I've just been hanging out on email and chat for the past few days. I guess this means it's time to revive some old hobbies!

Still though, 37% is on par with the combined effect of Protect Up and Power Down (40%). Another idea: Would it be possible for certain classes to gain one selectable saber spell based on stat increases? Maybe after reaching the second class change, one class for each character could learn one saber spell based on which stat you increase first (e.g., STR = Earth, AGI = Wind, VIT = Fire, INT = Water, SPI = Light, LUC = Dark)? This way, the player could select the saber spell based on their team's weakness/resistance profile if they want to take advantage of this saber/resist strategy. The choice of one saber spell would not have too much of an impact offensively, and anything that leads to increased customizability is generally a nice addition. EDIT: I would put this selectable saber spell on Lord, God Hand (instead of Moon Saber), Ninja Master or Nightblade, Grand Divina (instead of Speed Up, so she can access this saber/resist strategy which is not possible with her final weapon), Sage (instead of Life Booster), and Vanadis.

Like you said though, as the difference between attack and defense grows, this debuff approaches 45%. This should be fairly consistent in high damage situations by the time you reach the endgame, i.e. when you really need it. Some more examples (from one of my previous posts): Enemy attack 300, player defense 100: normal damage = 200, sabered/resisted damage = (330-100)/2 = 115 = 42.5% reduction Enemy attack 300, player defense 150: normal damage = 150, sabered/resisted damage = (330-150)/2 = 90 = 40% reduction Enemy attack 300, player defense 250: normal damage = 50, sabered/resisted damage = (330-250)/2 = 40 = 20% reduction Enemy attack 300, player defense 280: normal damage = 20, sabered/resisted damage = (330-280)/2 = 25 = 25% increase From these numbers, if you're taking melee damage over 150 HP without any buffs/debuffs, you should be in the 40-45% range. The funny thing is that in low damage situations, you can actually end up increasing enemy damage, but you would never actually use this strategy in those situations. EDIT: I guess my main point with all this is that a 40-45% debuff on melee/tech damage in the endgame, when random battles become much more difficult, may be too much for a conscientious player to ignore when planning a team. This is why spreading out the basic sabers more would provide more options for team building.

If it's possible to distinguish saber effects cast by players on enemies from those cast by enemies or those cast by players on themselves, then this effect should probably be nerfed. Otherwise it would interfere with the whole weakness/resistance balance. Nerfing it would accomplish the goal of make it less essential. If you made the defense bonus on par with Power Down, then they would be interchangeable in team building; teams could go for one or the other, or both. Even with the nerf though, I still like the idea of spreading more saber spells out so that more teams have access to this technique. Unlike Protect Up or Power Down, it has a built in cost in terms of equipment requirements that makes it less valuable than either of those, so it should be more common. Think of it as a poorer quality version of the real thing, but achievable by more class combinations. I see your point. So, an item like Red Moon Horn would serve as the requirement to let casters accumulate "item" points. I like this; you can purchase Red Moon Horn just before the first class change when multiple spells per battle become the norm. I also like your idea of reducing the double hitters to one tech point per attack. If you set it so that you gain one tech point as long as any one hit connects, they still have some advantage in terms of tech points, although also some disadvantage because their double attacks take longer to execute. It should balance nicely. Yes, I should have thought of this. There would be no point. This makes sense. But then it would be nice if there were still some way to subtract 1 from this requirement, so that a full tech bar gets you two items after the first class change and three after the second. If 4 TP is the standard, then you could offer the 3 TP per item use effect as a non-cumulative effect achievable by different conditions. For example, Ranger could get this effect automatically at the first class change, thus giving Light Hawk some early extra heal functionality without Heal Light, but it could also be available through equipment. If you put this effect on an accessory, then combining this accessory with the Mistscreen Charm will let you perform two item uses after three attacks, but use up all your accessory slots; still, you may consider this too powerful for an accessory. If you put this effect on a weapon, then you could nerf the character's melee as a tradeoff for granting more access to items. This would also give spell casters another way to gain access to increased item usage, since they are more likely to use a weapon with poor attack stats if it offers some other benefit. (Probably not the first weapon as I suggested earlier if you want 4 TP to be the obvious requirement at the beginning of the game, though you could give a later weapon with this effect similar attack stats to the first weapon.) EDIT: Giving this ability to Light Hawk instead of Heal Light fits nicely with his role as the “versatile” class choice: While not as powerful as a proper Heal Light spell, it gives Light Hawk a unique edge over other classes by granting him some small extra ability to use items for different purposes without sacrificing a spell slot. This edge is important as other classes increase their own versatility by filling out their spell slots, which Light Hawk can no longer do.

The Grand Divina sabers can't be used for saber/resistance, since they can't be cast on the enemy as sabers (i.e., they become the standard level 1 elemental spells). Because the saber/resist strategy generally has more severe equipment requirements to get everyone's resistance to match up, I think they can stand to be spread out more than the buffs/debuffs, which have no equipment requirements (except for maybe Whitelight Ring, which is also true for saber spells). I like the idea of almost any team being able to achieve some sort of defensive buff/debuff, e.g. through saber spells, although it may mean sacrificing equipment slots to do it, especially in the endgame where it becomes a matter of survivability. When enemies are dealing hundreds of HP in damage per hit (and enemy melee occurs much more frequently than spells), a 45% melee/tech debuff is really too useful an option to consider building a team without, and this will restrict team building options. I actually think the standard stat buffs/debuffs have a pretty good spread as they are, especially in the 1.2 update. What do you think of all this? I like the idea of having some way to achieve easier item usage, either through a class (Capstone?) bonus or a weapon or accessory. You mentioned in an old post that you were struggling to find something to distinguish the Rogue; a –1 TP required per item use bonus would do it. Another idea would be to have this instead as a Capstone bonus for Hawk, which might be nice way to give Hawk some additional healing power without giving him a Heal Light option.

General question since my PC may be dying: Is there anyone successfully patching/playing Sin of Mana on a Mac OS? Many years ago this was just not possible, but I have noticed new software support coming out in the past few years.

Two more questions/suggestions: 1) What are you thinking for the capstones? Would this be a completely new final class? Would it's bonuses be in terms of stats or abilities? Also, are you thinking one capstone or two for each character (one for each initial Light/Dark path)? 2) Apart from the standard stat buffs/debuffs, it would be also nice to spread out the basic elemental sabers (earth, wind, ice, fire) a bit; maybe just one saber here and there. This would make it possible for more class combinations to go for a (cast on enemy) saber/resist strategy. For example, if you want to go for a saber/resist strategy in any of the these four basic sabers, you need to bring along Dark Duran, Light Carlie, or Dark Angela, only 3 of the total 12 first class changes. Spreading these out would also make the light, dark, leaf, and moon sabers more special. As it is now, it's easier to go for a Dark Saber/resist strategy than any of the four basic sabers, being available to Dark Duran, Dark Kevin, Dark Carlie, and Light Lise, 4 of the total 12 first class changes. By making this strategy more accessible, more players would use the resistance armor, and enemy melee damage in the endgame would be more sustainable. EDIT: Final classes that could stand to learn one or two saber spells (with suggestions in parentheses): Paladin (Earth), Lord (Wind), God Hand (Light, maybe instead of Moon, to balance out his classes and make Dervish's saber spell unique), Ninja Master (Fire), Nightblade (Ice), Vanadis (Earth, Wind), Dragon Master (Fire), and Fenrir Knight (Ice, since her Moon and Leaf Sabers cannot be used for resistance purposes).

Capstone would be way too late for that, lv60 is like 3/4 through the game, if you made it this far without Heal Light you can just as well finish without it. You are right; I usually play on Normal, so by my imagination level 60 is workable. On Hard, probably not. Maybe the first class change is a better idea, just to make the game a little more fluid for everyone? Importantly, a standard after-battle heal would make No Heal Light teams much more reasonable to run. That's one point still open for debate. Could make MP regen ticks also give +1 TP or something. Feel free to throw some ideas around. I was actually going to suggest the +1 TP at MP regen ticks. I still think that a spell cast should be worth at least as many tech points as a melee attack. I like the idea of the new Red Moon Horn giving TP with spells cast, only now, there's not too much a spell caster can do with those tech points. If you make in-battle item use require TP, that gives them something else to do. One way you could set this up: +1 TP for each melee attack OR spell cast. +1 TP at MP regen ticks; this gives the intelligence stat another purpose for fighters. –3 TP for in-battle item use. –4 is too much; 3 item uses for a full 9 TP bar sounds more reasonable. This way, a full tech bar gives you a steady progression of 1 item use before the first class change, 2 items after the first class change, and 3 items after the second class change. EDIT: Also, some item-associated classes like Rogue (or even Sage, i.e. Alchemist), or even the first weapon (instead of its experience bonus) or an accessory, could grant bonuses like –1 TP required per item use. This may be a good way to add a unique element to these classes. There's a hard limit of 12 per character list for potential learnable spells, all Hawks except for Ninjamaster should be at that already. Well, if you're already getting rid of two spells to make it 10 per character, you might as well get rid of one more. Personally, I would get rid of the following: - Body Change (leave that for Rogue; though I would consider getting rid of the player's ability to use chibikko effect altogether, including Freya and the weapons; maybe Freya could add Snowman or Leaf Coat instead?) - Lunatic (again, leave that special for Rogue and Nightblade) - Energy Ball (I actually like this on Wanderer, but Heal Light would be more useful; maybe it could transfer to Rogue for one of his less useful throwy things) But my main point is that by bringing other classes up to 10 spells, you may be stepping on Wanderer's toes a bit, giving them access to a spell variety that used to be Wanderer's niche. One way to fix this is by giving Wanderer an extra really useful spell like Heal Light. I know that this would step on Paladin's toes in turn as the only other Antimagic/Heal Light user, but Paladin already has room for four more abilities to compensate, and there are so many ways around Antimagic now, I'm not sure that it's as essential as it used to be. Also, I don't think that this would make Wanderer too powerful if the after-battle heal became standard. EDIT: With Heal Light on Wanderer and –1 TP required per item use on Rogue, Light Hawk would gain some defensive versatility that would make him a more attractive alternative to Dark Hawk.

Invert-armor Necromancer would fall into the same category as Light Lise. An upkeep cost would be a good solution; as a mechanism to remove the buffs/upkeep, you could cast the spell again on your team between battles. This still removes the cast-time cost, but maybe this isn't as important or even preferable to keep.

I look at the MP/cast-time costs of buffs at the start of a new screen as a kind of maintenance cost for these buffs. It is logically a little weird but gameplay-wise, if you could keep the same buffs from screen to screen, there may never be a team without Light Lise ever considered again.

I love these ideas. These sound like major changes; all very exciting. Some questions/suggestions: 1) Can you expand on what you intend to do to "invalidate job discussion topic"? Most of the limitations for team building are around finding class combinations that meet certain spell requirements (mainly Heal Light and defensive buffs/debuffs). Do you plan to get rid of these limitations by making these skills more accessible or less necessary? (I also love the idea to limit the number of spells to 10 per class; 12 really crowds the ring). 2) On a related note, have you considered making the after-battle heal standard at some point (maybe at the Capstone?) instead of requiring Heal Light? This would make many more class combinations competitive. 3) If you plan to make item usage dependent on tech points, you may also want to consider a standard tech point gain for spell casting for those classes that cast more often than swing weapons. (It seems like you've already started towards this in the current update.) 4) Hawk could use a Heal Light option (Wanderer?). 5) Duran and Angela's level 1 techs only hit once, despite having two clear swings and having "Double" in the title. This is obviously a low priority issue, since there are actually some timing advantages for counterattacks that have a longer swing. Also, I really appreciate all the hard work and innovative thinking you've put into this project over the years. I am not familiar with hex editing but I would love to help or contribute in any way possible :-)

Star Lancer, Grand Divina, Necromancer/Evil Shaman can go for an easy Saint Saber/shared Light Resistance with Dusk Dress on Angela. It's too bad though, I'd really like to find a Lise/Angela/Carlie pairing that works well with Fenrir Knight to take advantage of her final weapon, but I'm not sure if the simplicity of the Star Lancer setup can be beat.

I see; thanks for that clarification! I thought I uncovered an extra net -20% attack power debuff there haha.

If this is true for all spells that affect atk, then an inverted Necromancer casting Dark Saber on all enemies should apply a -10% to atk instead of a +10%, thereby making this saber/resist strategy even more powerful. Thanks!

Never played Dervish, but this sounds like a pretty damn powerful team for him. I wonder if by having a stronger wolf form also imcreases his lv3 tech. While his final weapon I assume only effects normal hits and level 1 tech I suppose? Dervish's final weapon raises raw attack power so it should affect all levels of techs. My idea here is that double hitters are much better at rasping back HP than single hitters, so by throwing in passive heal, Water Jutsu, saber/resistance (with Diamond of Flame Saber here), and Protect up if you have Dervish inverted, you should be able to rely more on melee/techs in the endgame. Sounds nice, but you should be willing to cast Magic Shield on all 3 chars but on the upside it boosts magic and physical defense along with healing power for Grand Divina. It has also Speed up which all benefit ftom these two spells. There is no mind up for this team keep in mind but once Grand Divina gets her final weapon she could boost spell damage using her spells as sabers, so I would aim to get her final weapon as soon as W/A seeds become available to get. I feel less certain about this team. My idea here was that Wanderer and Necromancer could be set to casting while Grand Divina fires off instant (or close to instant) damage spells; melee would not even be attempted in the endgame. The problem with this strategy though is that it has no contingency plan; if enemies get through, there's no easy way to heal and back out. And as you said, I would have to Magic Shield three characters to get my defenses in order if I want to be able to take any hits. I'm thinking now instead that a shield user offers too many advantages to ignore; plus, the point of this project is to compare melee/tech and spell damage strategies, and most spell damage teams would be wise to bring along shields. I would prefer Lise to Duran in this case since I'd like to keep both teams on the same quest, and Lise has other options that make her a more natural fit for a spell damage team (Mind Up, summons, etc.). In addition to the Star Lancer/Grand Divina/X (Evil Shaman, Necromancer, or Ninja Master) ideas that were discussed before, I'd like to consider Fenrir Knight as potential a team leader. Her final weapon is just awesome for MP recovery, and helps with HP recovery as well; with her shields and final weapon, she offers unique advantages to a spell-damage focus team. Some ideas: - Fenrir Knight/Grand Divina/Necromancer: Necromancer can be inverted into a ST buff machine with Black Curse. Interestingly, the inversion may help the saber/resist strategy by adding a -10% instead of a +10% to enemy attack power (I have not confirmed this). Apart from this, you have lots of good elemental damage options, good heal options, and a second Transshape caster; the opening play would be Power Down by Fenrir Knight, Transsshape on Fenrir Knight by Grand Divina, and Dark Saber on all enemies by Necromancer; then, distract with Lise and buff/bomb with the others. The equipment requirements for this to work are heavy though; you need armors and helms on Lise and Angela for shared Dark resistance and invert armor on Carlie if you want further buffs. Still, I think this team could be quite effective. - Fenrir Knight/Magus/Bishop: This team would have worked better in the previous version of this mod when Bishop had Protect Up. Still, Magus can bring heavy damage, and you have good options in both elemental and neutral spell damage. Shared Fire resistance through Valkyrie Mail. - Fenrir Knight/Wanderer/Sage: No Angela! What kind of spell-damage team is this? Well, Fenrir Knight has her summon, Wanderer has Half Vanish, and Sage has some MT options. This team does well with buffs/debuffs and healing; my main concern is the lack of basic elemental damage options. Shared Fire resistance through Valkyrie Mail.

I was referring to Grand Divina's level 1 damage spells; at max agility she can fire them off more or less instantaneously, at least last time I played her on a previous version of this mod. I'm not sure if the cast times of her level 1 spells have been lengthened in the current version. I have always run Angela with a shield user, but once she maxes out her agility, wouldn't her lack of a cast time obviate the need for a shield? I may be thinking too optimistically. In any case, it would help to have a shield user around during the time when she is reaching that level as Grand Divina. I'm imagining two types of spell-damage teams: one with longer cast times that requires shields, and one with at least one character with short to zero cast time that can operate without a shield by constantly knocking enemies back with instant or close to instant damage spells. Also, one more question while I have your attention: Does invert armor flip crit rate buff/debuff spells like Energy Ball and Analyze?

I'm thinking of a spell-damage team, similar to yours, where a tank or a shield wouldn't be necessary; since Angela can cast her spells instantly, she should always free to knock enemies back, thus having no need for a shield. With her in the lead position, her two partners would be free to cast their own spells, maybe Wanderer and Necromancer to add to the damage, or Star Lancer to summon, or even someone to cast a Heal Light in case an enemy manages to get through.

Just curious, how often were you using Star Lancer's aggro shields by the endgame with this team?

One takes so much melee/tech damage in the endgame, I feel like any team should be designed to have this option open. All it needs at minimum is one person with one saber spell in one of the six major elements. Also, it's not really my idea, Praetarius suggested it in an old post on this forum :-) After playing around with this Hawk/Kevin/Carlie team, I'm thinking now of a larger project: running a melee/tech-damage focus team and a spell-damage focus team side-by-side. I'd like to experience how each strategy functions at different points in the game. Right now I'm thinking: - Ninja Master/Dervish/Sage: I'm extremely curious about Dervish's Berserker wolf form; the attack boost looks insane. Dervish can add Protect Up and Speed Up to Sage's Mind Up with invert armor, Ninja Master and Dervish can go for critical hits with Analyze and Energy Ball, and Dervish can Boost Sage's Rainbow Dust with Antimagic and Poison Breath/Leaf Coat. Plus, this team will have Moon Saber and Leaf Saber which I'd like to explore more; Moon Saber together with the yellow damage HP rasp weapons and Sage's passive heal could be just enough to keep two double-hitters afloat in the endgame. - Wanderer/Grand Divina/Necromancer: Grand Divina/Necromancer is a great combination for spell damage in the six major elements and Heal Light. Plus, Grand Divina can switch to team leader once her spells become instant, allowing three casters with Wanderer and Necromancer sniping away threats with Half Vanish/elemental/Leaf Coat damage. The major question for me is whether this team can work smoothly without shields. Star Lancer would be good option in place of Wanderer to address this problem, but at the moment, I think I'd rather have Wanderer's double hit and spell versatility than Star Lancer's shield option and useful but MP-heavy summon. I will think on it some more. This will be a longish project since I only really get to play on weekends, but a fun one I think :-)

Quick question for Praetarius: Will invert armor flip crit rate buff spells like Energy Ball to debuffs, and debuff spells like Analyze to buffs? What about the +10% saber buff?

The neutral spell element armor would boost the damage, but only half a level, since the spell levels are capped at 3.5. Still, it would be better than the 75% modifier you get from resistance plus weakness or worse you get from immunity. As for Dragon Master's Antimagic, I used to think it would net you four weaknesses, i.e. 150%^4 = 506%, but the game only counts one weakness or one resistance; still, 150% is a nice modifier.

This makes me think now that since Ninja Master can open up counters with his final weapon, Bishop can take advantage of that, maybe even with a Fireblaze. Well, you have convinced me a bit, I now see it like this: - Star Lancer, Ninja Master, Bishop: Ninja Master opens counters, Energy Ball/Analyze, everyone goes wild; best physical team, but no Curse. Reflect armor is better anyways! Transhape/shields. - Star Lancer, Nightblade, Bishop: Curse, so more armor choices, but no ability to open counters in the late game. - Star Lancer, Ninja Master, Sage: Strong MT spell damage with MT Fire Jutsu followed by Saint Beam/Dark Force and Marduk, Curse, passive heal option. Energy Ball/Analyze, Transhape/shields. - Star Lancer, Nightblade, Sage: Strong MT spell damage with Black Rain or Poison Breath to enhance Rainbow Dust, Curse, passive heal option. I would personally go for Star Lancer, Ninja Master, and then Bishop for better boss fighting or Sage for better mob fighting.

Well, that should be about 2.5 x the saber effect, so not so bad. It might also be more effective for high level spells like Rainbow Dust since the spell level modifier actually decreases with level before defense is subtracted. It's too bad Jormungand doesn't Leaf Coat all enemies instead of Poison, I'd love to follow that up with Rainbow Dust or Rune Master's MT Blaze Wall!