rpschamp

Awesome update, skipped 1.1 entirely. Thank you, thank you, thank you for getting rid of Beastman Collar's gold/rare item gain. Many players (including myself) would equip these stupid things for at least half the game to increase their purchasing power. Now that is not an option, and players will be using accessories that affect gameplay instead. I love it.

Great addition to the Broadsword-level items.

Big changes to Death Hand.

New mini-boss in Seashore Cave? Could this be the missing octo-boss?!

Great idea on the mob-scaling patch.

One criticism: Black Rain and Shuriken still both cost 8 MP. Please explain to me your thinking on this. I would have corrected this by bringing the Black Rain cost up; at 8 MP, it's way too powerful, especially with the element-cancelling armor. However, perhaps its utility will decrease now with your corrections to that armor in terms of absorb/reflect.

So, I've finally gotten my group far enough to play around with this self-cast status/resist/reflect thing. All the status spells I have to cast with my team are Sleep Flower and Body Change. I haven't tried the latter since I'm missing a Moon Ring, but reflect armor/Wind God Bracelet/self-cast Sleep Flower puts every incoming attacker to sleep (who does not resist sleep). Since I'm running a caster team, this basically slows down attackers so my MT spells can get out faster relative to their attacks. This is going to be great for those particularly melee damage-heavy sections of the game (werewolves, knights, dragons, etc.) that caster teams typically have trouble with.

But the most surprising thing is that you can self-cast the spell once, off-screen, before entering an enemy screen, and every new enemy screen from there will be subject to the same effect until someone casts a spell on you.

Rune Master should be killer with this strategy. Reflect armor/resist petrify/self-cast Stone Cloud while you're safe, then heal before entering a screen with enemies, and every enemy that attacks you for the rest of the dungeon will be petrified (unless they resist it), until someone casts another spell on you. Bring a shield along to focus the attacks on your reflector.

The next group I'm thinking of running to take advantage of this effect is Vanadis/Rune Master/Necromancer. Paladin could substitute for Vanadis to take advantage of Earth Shield, but he's weak to earth and lacks the Mind Up and Speed Up that would be useful for a caster team.

15 minutes ago, Kei said:

We didn't choose our final classes yet, we're at Ninja/Bashkar/Knight, so no light Kevin. Lead character is Hawk and my friend is playing Kevin. He doesn't like stopping the action all the time so I tried to make a team that revolves mostly around basic attacks and lv1 techs, that's why Dervish seemed the logical choice. Death Hand with Lunatic and elemental sabers seems very appealing, but Dervish does have Moon saber, and I also wanna try out that final weapon so I guess I'm going with Dervish on this one. 

Those level 1 techs are perfect for a counterattack strategy; plus, it's more fun to try to time your counterattacks than just attack away racking up critical hits.

I also find myself making decisions more on what interests me than what will necessarily work out best, but Dervish also gets Leaf Saber which Ninja Master will love, so not a bad choice at all, good luck! (Also remember for the future that Death Hand's multitarget Lunatic can be flipped with invert armor, leading to the only multitarget Life Booster in the game! I don't know exactly how useful that would be but it sounds kind of awesome.)

Remember to come back and post your evaluation of Dervish's final weapon once you get a chance to try it!

42 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

much more attack than regular wolf form at cost of defenses.

I love the idea of the Sufi "whirling dervish" applied as a berserker form, an attack state of religious ecstasy beyond concern for self-preservation. Good job with this one!

I think I someone said it’s just an attack bonus but I’ve never used it so I’m not sure. You’ve already chosen your final classes, correct? If not, I wonder if Death Hand for Kevin might make more sense since Lord already offers Energy Ball and Dervish’s debuffs are already covered. If you’re still early in the game, you might also consider Kevin’s light path; God Hand gets both Power Up and Counter Magic to cover your magical defense (it does not reflect spells in this game) while keeping access to Saint and Moon Sabers.

The cool thing about your team that you can try both critical hit and counterattack setups and see which one you prefer. If Duran is your lead character though, the counterattack setup should work well against his sub-bosses who I think require counterattacks to beat them.

I would go for Lord, if only for Tinkle Rain and Life Booster which are always useful; you can keep some Papa Poto's Claws for Saint Saber during important battles, Turn Undead is most useful when you're overlevelled and least need it, and Antimagic is only necessary against one or two bosses. But the main reason is that Lord's final weapon opens up counterattacks on level 2/3 techs, and both Ninja Master and Dervish are awesome Fireblaze/counterattackers due to their double hits. Fireblaze chips away at defense, -25% per hit against random enemies, and -Strength/2 per hit against bosses (except the few that are immune). Set Hawk and Kevin on their level 1 techs with Fireblaze and their counterattack weapons and you should be set.

The main advantage I see to Paladin here is Magic Shield, which can raise your magic defense and healing power, potentially important for this team.

Demon Neckband can only be bought from the cats when you're fighting the God Beasts, so not yet.  With your team, since Duran is a Paladin, I would stick with Protect Up for most situations since that gives a 25% reduction on all physical damage without the extra equipment. But for those heavy melee/tech damage situations when you want the extra defense, your easiest path is through Dark Saber: Duran can wear Swordsman Armor or Demon Neckband, Hawk can wear Demon Neckband, and Kevin, who naturally resists dark, has the option to wear Whitelight Ring if you want to target all enemies.

Just an update on my Wanderer, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman/Necromancer team. I'm at the final class change and I'm playing around a bit with both Evil Shaman and Necromancer, trying to decide which one to take. This is a tougher decision than I thought it would be because they both seem pretty awesome, so I tried to think of who had the advantage in different functions and apply an arbitrary rating to be added up (+1-5 for the winner in each case, out of 15 total for defense and 15 total for offense; the advantages Evil Shaman might have in support spells don't really apply here, since Wanderer and Grand Divina already cover everything she offers).

Defense:

Party buffs: Evil Shaman gets Protect Up, and Wanderer, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman can cast Mind Up, Speed Up, Protect Up one-two-three. This is incredibly fast and effective, but requires three Whitelight Rings. On the other hand, unless I give Necromancer invert armor, her party will be missing Protect Up. I can see inverted Black Curse being useful in some situations, but in order to get the whole party buffed she will have to cast three inverted Black Curses wearing invert armor and probably Rune Earrings to access the MP. Until she can get her cast time way down, this will occupy her and leave her vulnerable for quite some time. Evil Shaman definitely has the advantage here. (Evil Shaman + 4)

ST debuffs: Necromancer has the advantage here with Black Curse, but it's really only an advantage for random enemies. For bosses, it's not difficult to manipulate the game into feeding you Bottles of Ashes from ??? seeds, and even before the second class change I have enough in my inventory for almost all the remaining boss fights. Necromancer also gets an additional debuff through her Dark Saber, described below, which in some cases can more than make up for the lack of Protect Up. (Necromancer + 3)

MT debuffs: Evil Shaman can cast Ghost Road and Demon Breath, both useful for both defense and offense. Evil Shaman's final weapon also contributes to this purpose, though it's usefulness may decrease towards the end of the game as stat decreases become less meaningful. Necromancer gets Dark Saber, which can be cast on a group of enemies to take advantage of dark resistance. This is a surprisingly convenient strategy for this group, since Wanderer and Necromancer both naturally resist dark, and Grand Divina can add dark resistance with her Mananan Robe. Still, Evil Shaman has the advantage here due to the simplicity and flexibility of her spells. (Evil Shaman + 3)

Offense:

ST damage: Necromancer has the advantage here due to damage diversity (more elements, a non-elemental spell, and a HP-based spell). Plus, her final weapon looks pretty damn effective, but I've never used it before so I'm not really sure. Could someone who has used Necromancer tell me how much extra damage to expect with her final weapon if, let's say, an endgame Necromancer is down 400 HP and casting one of her level 2 ST summons? HP armor and Wanderer's Life Booster should also be useful here. (Necromancer + 3 to +5, depending on how effective her final weapon is)

MT damage: Evil Shaman's MT damage through Demon Breath or Ghost Road should hit almost as hard as Necromancer's Black Rain, since the damage stat is a little higher. Demon Breath also enhances Angela's subsequent spells by 25%, which is a big boost since Grand Divina can fire off multiple spells in quick succession, even at moderate agility. All in all, I think Evil Shaman has the advantage here due to Demon Breath; plus, she can mix in Ghost Road to debuff the enemies further. (If only Hawk's spirit weapons hit against magical defense!) (Evil Shaman + 2)

Curse: Evil Shaman cannot apply Curse, but Grand Divina can apply it with Evil Gate and Necromancer with Black Rain. Evil Gate is faster, but Grand Divina's accessory slots are more precious due to her greater dependency on the Whitelight Ring and Protect Earrings. Assuming Necromancer can get her speed up, freeing up one of Angela's accessory slots should give her the advantage here; plus Black Rain is the more powerful spell. (Necromancer + 2)

Overall/Questions:

Overall, Evil Shaman gets a +4 for defense, while Necromancer gets between a +3 and +5 for offense, depending on how much her final weapon can add to her spell damage. Pretty evenly matched! So, would a team of Wanderer, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman/Necromancer better profit from enhanced defense or enhanced offense? My feeling is that for the second third of the game, due to my vitality stat running low while I fill out my spell roster, Protect Up will be really nice to keep myself alive when I need it, and Ghost Road and Demon Breath will make random battles easier, giving Evil Shaman the advantage. For the final third of the game, I would like to ask anyone who has used Evil Shaman or Necromancer what you think of their final weapons. Does Evil Shaman's final weapon stay useful up through the final boss? How much damage does Necromancer's final weapon add to her spells, and how does the damage boost compare to other methods (e.g. Mind Up, equipment boosts, etc.)? Based on my estimation from the mechanics files, Necromancer's final weapon should be able to boost her spells as much as Duelist's final weapon boosts his level 2/3 techs (up to +250 damage before multipliers), which seems like A LOT, with the caveat that she has to be able to function at low HP. This may give her the advantage in the end.

EDIT: Regarding casting sabers on enemies and using resist gear: After reviewing the mechanics files, it seems that the greater the difference between the enemy's attack and your defense, the greater the percent damage reduction, approaching 45%. Let's look at some examples (I'm not sure if these values make sense, but the examples should make the point):

Enemy attack 300, player defense 100: Normal damage = 200, sabered/resisted damage = (330-100)/2 = 115 = 42.5% reduction

Enemy attack 300, player defense 150: Normal damage = 150, sabered/resisted damage = (330-150)/2 = 90 = 40% reduction

Enemy attack 300, player defense 250: Normal damage = 50, sabered/resisted damage = (330-250)/2 = 40 = 20% reduction

Enemy attack 300, player defense 280: Normal damage = 20, sabered/resisted damage = (330-280)/2 = 25 = 25% increase

The funny thing is that in low damage situations, you can actually end up increasing enemy damage this way. The important thing is though that in high damage situations, when you really need it, you can reduce enemy weapon or tech damage by close to 45%. So, when enemy weapon or tech damage is your main source of damage and they are doing a lot of it (werewolves, knights, ninjas, Lugar, Bigieu, etc.), a saber/resist option may be even more useful than Protect Up.

Quick question for Praetarius: Is there a coding reason target inversion with Y wasn't incorporated for item use, or did you just think it would unbalance the game? I get that turning Stardust Herbs into Specter's Eyes is a bit overpowered, but you could introduce some limitations here (Stardust Herbs could be set to have no effect on bosses, for instance), and it would be cool to be able to access the stat-downs through Byzel items and inversion armor.

On 3/13/2020 at 2:00 AM, Nesouk said:

EDIT : OK I finally test the Dwarf Village's Armor that allow to deny counter on Bill and Ben with Angela and... goddamn this armor is really in that particular fight for Angela, she can finally be relevant in this fight as thanks to this armor she proc Shadow Dive a lot less, as a result she can bombard spell as ever and geez just having Angela being able to do that make this fight a LOT faster, best way for this fight is probably coming on Salamando Day use the Steel Armlet for the physical hitter and Fireball with Angela.

That armor is a life-saver for a caster team through the early and mid game. Angela and Carlie can essentially juggle bosses like Bill & Ben and Machine Golems to death without fear of too much retribution. I use it on almost every boss except the few with weak/no counters.

Got my Hawk/Angela/Carlie team up to the ice fields. This is the team I've been looking for and I'm really happy I came back to it; I love playing these characters and gave up too early on them the first time. Shields, while helpful, are not necessary for a decoy; you can get a similar effect without them if you play your lead character correctly, just less room for error. I went light for Hawk and Angela and dark for Carlie, and plan to go Wanderer, Grand Divina, Necromancer (or Evil Shaman) at this point. Magus/Evil Shaman would also be a nice choice if Hawk had a class that learns Heal Light.

I'm glad to know the No Heal Light team (Team Zombie?) is working out! I'd like to hear how much the game changes once you get Fenrir Knight's final weapon. Some of the death score weapons/armor might also be interesting to try here, maybe to boost Wanderer's damage in the late game?

So, through a failed hard drive and a couple of careless decisions, I ended up deleting my Duran/Angela/Carlie game without having a backup. Luckily I lost no major work in this process, so no big deal. But I will probably not be continuing with the Duelist/Grand Divina/Necromancer plan. I wanted to give Dark Duran a chance, but after playing with him up through about 40% of the game, it's clear that his advantages do not appear until the late game. Light Duran gets Heal Light and Protect Up at the first class change, two hugely useful abilities that you learn when just when the battles start to get more difficult. Dark Duran's sabers are just not as useful when you need them to be.

I did, however, fall in love with Dark Carlie. I raised her spirit, then luck, then agility; the luck increase surprisingly added something like 40% to her spell damage. Having both Light Angela and Dark Carlie mid-game was much more powerful than Light Angela/Light Carlie I used on a previous team; I could handle most groups of mobs in two or three spells, and Dark Carlie was out-damaging Angela pretty regularly for boss fights.

I plan to keep Angela/Dark Carlie as the backbone of my team when I get a new game going, but I'm thinking to change the main character. Light Duran is the obvious choice for early Heal Light, Protect Up, and shields, but the devil inside me is urging me to give that aborted Hawk/Angela/Carlie team another chance. Lise is another option of course. I will report back once I get the game going and make some progress.

EDIT: Just passed FMH with Hawk/Angela/Carlie. If Nesouk can be brave enough to try a No Heal Light run, I can be brave enough to try this star-crossed team.

On 3/7/2020 at 1:14 PM, Nesouk said:

Anyway for my No Heal Light team decide to do thing a little differently than what I was planning earlier here's my team plan :

-Lise is going to be Fenrir Knight, obviously would be crazy to not go for this class on such a party, so that give me all debuffs a good shield user obviously her most attractive feature is her Final weapon for it healing on counter effect, but also Moon Saber for Draining HP.

-Hawk : Now this is where I'm gonna be bold, upon thinking it his Dark Classes seems like a good pick, Ninja Master could open counter for Fenrir Knight, and Nightblade could give Curse and good nuking with Black Rain, but I don't want to be stuck on Invert Armor with Lise, and so considering she already bring the debuff I don't think Dark Hawk will bring much.
And so I'm gonna do something different and go for his Wanderer class for a few reasons. First off his spells will give a lot of tools to play around, in a no Heal Light game I think Life Booster might prove more usefull, also has Lunatic (only class with both Life Booster and Lunatic by the way) he also has Transshape so Transshape + Shield combo will be a thing with Lise, Aura Wave will allow Lise to get her LV1 Tech ready faster, Anti Magic will prove usefull to on some fight (I'm going all out in this run as you can see XD), Mind Up is the most important buff for most of the boss fights (and will strengthen Angela) and on top of all this utility Dual Hitting Counter with Fireblaze is still a thing, also get a cheap fast to cast spell with Arrow, a guaranteed fix damage with Half Vanish and his Final Weapon, as well as Body Change while not wanted on regular playthrough if things get ugly I will not mind losing EXP to make mob fight easier. 

-Angela : Gonna go to Rune Master, the goal on this party will be trying for mob fight to minimize damage as much as possible, and so Rune Master being able to cripple mobs with Statut Effects is a no brainer for me, Wanderer's Antimagic will allow her to bypass immunities, and for boss fight she will mostly use her LV2 Spells.

Will see how it will turn out.

Sounds good, I agree that Wanderer has advantages here. He's more of a caster than Dark Hawk and will compliment Rune Master's MT direct damage with single-target direct damage spells Arrow and Half Vanish which can cast cheaply and quickly while Fenrir Knight keeps the casters safe with her shield. You can also try Sleep Flower self-cast / reflect armor / Wind God Bracelet here that you wouldn't have access to with Dark Hawk. For heavy physical damage fights you can just buy Bulette's Scales get the the Protect Up.

My Duran/Angela/Carlie group is going well so far; I should hit my second class change this week. Having Light Angela and Dark Carlie on the same team is just really nice mid-game; you can either have two MT dilrect damage or one MT and one heavy ST direct damage caster, depending on the situation. Apart from nuking mobs, this works well in multi-boss fights like Bill & Ben and Machine Robos where Angela can keep bringing heavy damage to all bosses at once while Carlie can focus on one at a time to stagger when they hit their 25% HP attacks.

I'm thinking of going back to a Lise/Angela/Carlie group afterwards to compare with this run, but I want to see how Duran and invert-Necromancer work out first.

Yeah, I was kind of thinking that her spells would be better for direct targeting. The only enemies a reflect strategy might help her with are Power Boulders to get around their spell repel. 

Rune Master is great; crazy against mobs and able to sneak around resist/immunity (DOLAN). Once you've memorized the status immunities she becomes a huge help as mobs get tougher in the second half of the game. Snowman and Petrify just can't be reproduced at her efficiency with any other class.

If forced to rank Angela's classes, I would still probably put Grand Divina on top for her versatility, Rune Master second, Archmage third, Magus fourth. I used to love Archmage, but I find that her final weapon leaves her without many options when she can't find a weakness, making her awesome in most situations but not so great in some of the more difficult ones (DOLAN). But she still has great support abilities. I haven't given Magus nearly as much of a shot as these other classes; Mind Up and Power Up are always nice, but for pure MT spell casting I'd still almost always go with Rune Master for the statuses.

Paladin/Grand Divina/Nightblade gives you three low- or no-damage status/reflect spells and plenty of damage options; I may keep this file around in case I decide to go back to it. Since I haven't played a Paladin to his final weapon, could someone tell me what kind of damage to expect out of Turn Undead? Is there a spell level associated with it? Is it on par with Black Rain? Is it controlled by spirit or intelligence (or both)?

I passed my defense today, so I'm rewarding myself with a couple of beer/video game days this weekend before they start to look around for me back in lab :-) Time to finally get this Duran/Angela/Carlie team going!

13 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

20 hours ago, rpschamp said:

She also gets sabers in the four basic elements which besides being good for offense, could be cast on the enemy with resist gear to decrease melee damage by 45% (half of 110% with the basic saber bonus).

Small to big error here; sabers increase attack power (the stuff before defense is subtracted) not damage, so you'll probably see a bigger increase than just 10%.

Thanks for the correction. This is one of those niche strategies I have not tried out yet nor have yet to confirmed if anybody else has. I still think it has potential, even if the decrease in melee/tech damage is less than 45% (I imagine it would be at least comparable to the 25% Power Down effect).

9 hours ago, Nesouk said:

-Fenrir Knight, Magus, Dervish : Invert armor on Dervish to get all buffs, Moon Saber and Fenrir Knight's final weapon on top of items to heal, Mad Beast Ring should be usefull to heal between each zone without consuming item, if all fail for bosses Magus deathspell could be an option.

-Star Lancer, Rune Master, Nightblade : All buffs with fast speed cast with Star Lancer, Rune Master allow to both nuke and cripple the mob fight while Nightblade debuff and can nuke either with Black Rain or his LV3 Tech, Fireblaze with counter for bosses.

I have thought about this No Heal Light team before.... To start, I think your #1 should be Fenrir Knight, obviously for her final weapon but also for her debuffs, Moon Saber, and her ability to use shields so you can better control incoming melee damage. Next, you'll want a heavy caster who can stay safe and throw bombs while Lise distracts and counter-heals. Rune Master may be the best choice for this since her best spells inflict statuses, debilitating the enemy significantly and limiting incoming attacks. Silence in particular will be pretty nice to limit spell and tech damage (except from werewolves, which can be petrified). She also gets sabers in the four basic elements which besides being good for offense, could be cast on the enemy with resist gear to decrease melee damage by 45% (half of 110% with the basic saber bonus). Then for your third, I would go for someone who could make up the missing buffs or debuffs, depending on whether someone wears invert armor, and also do some physical damage. Here, Ninja Master seems like a great option; his final weapon lets you open up counter opportunities if the enemy is weak to one of the four basic elements, notably every final dungeon boss on Hawk/Lise's quest. This will let you better control your healing during some of the more difficult fights. Fenrir Knight can wear invert armor for buffs when you need them, and Ninja Master can debuff and help Angela bomb the crowd. So, my unstoppable No Heal Light team would be:

Fenrir Knight, Ninja Master, Rune Master

Weaknesses include no holy or dark damage, but Rune Master's final weapon lets her ignore resistances and immunities for her level 2 spells so you should always be able to do spell damage. Plus, Hawk and Lise can always go physical with sabers and Fireblaze, which should possibly be equipped on both Hawk and Lise here. Also no Antimagic, but with all the spell damage, that shouldn't be a concern. To help with the healing and reduce incoming damage, team members can equip Dragon Rings, Mad Beast Fangs, and those armors and accessories that boost defenses like crazy but take damage from Heal when you want to conserve items.

3 hours ago, Barnacle_Ed said:

Paladin/Rune Master/Necromancer seems like a plenty safe fallback if the Grand Divina party falls apart, Rune Master is pretty great and her sabers will also benefit most of Carlie's summons. I also wonder if you could make Angela a Magus instead here - you'd only have Saint and Dark sabers, but you pick up Lunatic and Ancient and Deathspell. Not sure if they're comparable in terms of damage at end game (I still haven't made a Magus party I've been happy with yet) but Lunatic is always nice for boss fights.

The first thing for me to figure out is which of Angela's status spells work best with Duran's shield resist/reflect armor. Sleep Flower has a lot of potential here since it works on a bunch of late game enemies (including dragons and werewolves), does no damage when self-cast, casts quickly, and should not accrue aggro/hate when reflected. Rune Master has Petrify, Silence, Snowman, and Poison, but all of these come with level 3 spell damage when self-cast, take time to cast, and might better be used directly on mobs. Nightblade gets Silence and Poison on low level spells, so he could be good to pair with Grand Divina for more status/reflect options. This is what I was thinking with my current Duran/Angela/Hawk group, but I ended up missing the Angela/Carlie dual-caster effect too much (Shuriken costs way too much for early game Hawk, and holding out half the game for Black Rain didn't feel optimal).

Nothing wrong with Duran/Angela/Hawk. I think I've just played too many similar parties in the past (Light Duran or Lise for tank/support, Hawk for physical damage, Angela for magical damage). But I'm looking for something different with this magical focus group, and replacing Carlie with Hawk didn't leave me with the dynamic I wanted, at least for the early and mid game.

On the face of it, invert armor on Necromancer to cover all buffs/debuffs seems to have some problems, the main one being the lack of easy MT Power and Mind Down for use against mobs. But this is really a very specific ability restricted to just a few classes in the game. Other problems are that it's not convenient to apply just one buff when you just want to counter a specific debuff, it leaves Carlie on invert armor, and Bottles of Ashes are expensive. But there are also some benefits - the main one being that you only need one spell to cover all buffs/debuffs when choosing your teammates. This gives you more options for choosing teammate combinations that don't otherwise cover the necessary buffs/debuffs. Leaving Carlie on invert armor is not ideal, but Necromancer may be able to work a low HP strategy out of this. Also, having access to just one of either buffs or debuffs should be fine for mobs - saving a Bottle of Ashes to get both buffs and debuffs for each God Beast doesn't seem like too much of a burden, it only takes up one item slot, and it gives you something to do with all the extra money you tend to accumulate during the second half of the game.

Light Duran is really nice for that level 18-38 stretch, but he doesn't have as much growth potential as Duelist. Grand Divina gets Heal Light right at level 39 and gives Duran the freedom to go for his highest damage class. Despite missing Magic Shield, Grand Divina is a better healer than Paladin, and having Heal Light on a character you don't directly control is better for control purposes since it takes time to cast. And as I've detailed before, Duelist/Grand Divina should have a lot of synergy with Transshape and Sleep Flower. There is a lot to be said for Rune Master, though, and Paladin/Rune Master/Necromancer should be an awesome team in its own right.

I think my strategy might be to go for Duelist/Grand Divina/Necromancer first, and if it's not working out, drop back to a save file at the first class change and go for the less risky team of Paladin/Rune Master/Necromancer. I would really like to start testing more unconventional teams at this point to see if I can open up new ways to play this mod.

So, I played around a little with Duran/Angela/Hawk and got bored.... Now I'm back to Duran/Angela/Carlie (on Friday, after I hopefully pass my thesis defense). I thought of this crazy variation on a team we were discussing recently:

Duelist, Grand Divina, Necromancer

Duelist shields the casters and slams things with his level 3 tech while Grand Divina supports, damages, and heals, as before. Necromancer is the new element - with invert armor and purchasable Bottles of Ashes, I'll have access to all buffs and debuffs in one spell, cast three times, and one item. Rune Earrings would be great for her, since her spells cost so much anyways - I could ignore intelligence and boost her other stats. Her final weapon would fit well with this build, increasing spell damage with lost HP; I could even consider a death score build at this point. This team would be capable of crazy damage, both physical and magical. It sounds fun and different from what I'm used to so I might go for it. Any thoughts?

1 hour ago, Iejirisk said:

Woo, just beat the full metal hugger after a bit of trial and error. Still struggling to wrap my head around the fast/strong attacks though I admit. Seems like no matter what I do I attack like I would in vanilla and don't see any AT showing up n whatnot.  Also being stubborn and playing on hard. Frustrating, yet I like how winning even basic mob fights can feel rewarding since you can't just bumrush it lol.

I think the AT strategy that was possible in the original game is not possible here.... I seem to remember Praetarius took it out (Somebody please confirm?). Here, the difference between fast and strong attacks is how long you hold down the attack button for each attack. To be honest, the precision is not great on my end.... I think it largely depends on your software setup and controller.

Good choice. Also, Dark Lise has the same debuffs as Dark Hawk so you're not missing out :-)

One of the things I love about this game is the personality of the characters. Some of them inspire love, others hate, but at least they inspire! I feel like Square did a decent job here providing a variety of personalities for players to work with.

1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

Tough one team that could be fun with Dervish if we don't restrain character is : Dervish, Bishop, Archmage get all debuff with Dervish and Archmage and all Sabers with Dervish and Bishop, Protect Up and Magic Shield (don't forget it also improve Heal Light and the Heal Light's buff from Magic Shield/Counter Magic isn't the same as Mind Up so they do stack if you have both in your team ^^) with Bishop, physical and magical damage with Dervish and Archmage, Aura Wave and Antimagic if needed.

Dervish, Bishop, Archmage sounds killer and you would have both Kevin and Carlie on their quest so you can hit all the plot points as well :-) Bishop's final weapon is driven by Spirit and hits about as hard as Duran does, so she could make up some physical damage in the second half of the game.

13 hours ago, Iejirisk said:

Trying my best to avoid angela and charlotte, which limits my options a decent bit.  At first I was thinking Lord(or Paladin maybe)/Starlancer as partners for my Dervish run, though I'm wondering how much one would miss the stat debuffs aside what the dervish gets. Any suggestions?

Just a heads-up since you're new to the mod, Angela and Carlie play a lot better here due to the revised counter system. Enemies build up counters to all attacks using an aggro system, meaning that Angela won't get a counter response to every spell. Also in this mod, it's usually better to go for a balanced team that can at least do some of both physical and magical damage, since some enemies and bosses have maxed out defense against one or the other, so taking just one of Angela or Carlie can be very useful at times.

Among the stat debuffs, Power Down and Mind Down are the most important, so while the Dervish ones are still nice, you would rather go for the other two. You cannot achieve Power Down or Mind Down through purchasable items either, except for a couple of purchasable class change items (Dark Carlie can purchase Black Curse, and Dark Lise can purchase MT Mind Down), and these are very expensive.

If you're willing to take one of either Angela or Carlie, Evil Shaman and Archmage are both good choices for a physical team. Evil Shaman gets two spells, Ghost Road and Demon Breath, that do MT Power Down and MT Mind Down as well as damage; Archmage gets the normal Power Down and Mind Down as ST spells that can be upgraded to MT by an accessory. Both of these classes gets Antimagic, which can be nice for a physical team to reduce physical immunity; Archmage also gets Aura Wave to pump up your physical fighter's techs (which, like spells, don't get countered as often).

If you still don't want either Angela or Carlie, you're best choice for Power Down and Mind Down is Dark Hawk or Dark Lise. Just be aware that Most of Hawk's spells (with the exception of Wanderer's Half Vanish and Poison Bubble) do physical damage, not magical, so any enemy with physical immunity or maxed out physical defense will be difficult to kill with this type of damage. All Lise's classes do get a summon that does magical damage, but this is a little clunky since it costs so much MP.

For the team you suggested, the only way to get Power Down and Mind Down would be either to switch Lise to one of her dark classes or have her wear the invert armor that inverts her spells to stat down spells (which can be cast on the enemy by holding Y while choosing the spell during battle). Invert armor does restrict your abilities to wear other armor though. Dragon Master would be a good partner here since her final weapon upgrades her Antimagic spell to clear all immunities and resistances and propagate any weaknesses to all elements, allowing you to clear physical resistance and making your sabers more useful. Even though Paladin's Antimagic would be less useful in comparison, I still think he might be a better choice for this team since his Magic Shield gives you the defensive part of Mind Up (as well as Protect Up and some other benefits) and his final weapon gives him an MT magical damage spells to add to Lise's summon. Paladin, Dragon Master, Dervish would be lacking Power Up and the offensive part of Mind Up, but these are not as important as the defensive halves, and I think this team would be pretty powerful regardless; for mobs you can use Paladin's and Dragon Master's MT damage spells and just pound things to death, and for bosses you can power up with any saber (Dervish's Moon Saber and Leaf Saber should be good choices here) and cast Dragon Master's Antimagic, increasing your melee damage output by 60% in almost all cases (10% base saber bonus plus 50% weakness bonus). Anyways, you can buy Drake's Scales and Sahagin's Scales to pump up your damage when you need to. The team I'm running now has a similar dynamic.

EDIT: Nesouk and I responded at the exact same time with the exact same team, so that one is probably a good bet. His Ninja Master option is also good, but also consider Nightblade instead of Ninja Master, since his Black Rain can add to your MT damage output and apply Curse, an awesome effect that causes an enemy's physical damage to be applied back towards itself. Just remember that Dark Hawk's spell damage is physical instead of magical (Lise's summon damage is magical), so it won't help against those bosses with maxed out physical defense.

Alright fellow boardsmen, I'm finally starting my game today, I'm going with Light Duran, Angela, Dark Hawk (substituted for Dark Carlie for extra physical damage). I'll split the team into two at the first class change and go Light Angela -> Grand Divina with one and Dark Angela -> Rune Master with the other. One of my goals is to play out this status/reflect thing and determine whether Sleep Flower (no damage, light status) or Petrify/Snowman (heavy damage, heavy status) is more useful. Apart from status/reflect, Grand Divina and Rune Master both seem like competent teammates for Light Duran and Dark Hawk, so I think this will be a fun game.

1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

Really Darkshine Knight and Korren are so much more manageable when you have a Dual Hitter like Hawk or Kevin and Fireblaze to double counter them, wishbone on the Shield wielder definitly help if Korren decide to spam Deathspell or even cast MT Deathspell, we'll see how Dragon Emperor goes now that I know his gimmick and what spell he can use I think it will be a better fight.

A double-hitter, hmm.... I've been thinking about this too. A close alternative to Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Carlie would be Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Hawk, trading some spell power for someone who can melee when necessary. I'm thinking Paladin/Lord, Rune Master, Nightblade/Ninja Master would be a pretty terrifying team. Here, I can see taking the Nightblade instead of the Ninja Master for Black Rain, since Rune Master doesn't need the MT Mind Down as much as Angela's other classes, and Angela would be working crowd control anyways with her MT status effects. I would be missing my Sleep Flower but with Hawk instead of Carlie, I'd be going with more melee anyways. What do you guys think?

3 hours ago, Serafie1999AD said:

I tried the Sleep Flower reflecting tactic with reflect armor and the accessory that protects from sleep. Yeah, it works. However, it's still not a very useful tactic, since the enemies wake up when they next take damage, and I think it's better to setup your spell usage and equipment for other purposes.

For a caster team though that does not often use melee, this could be great, since the only attacks that wake enemies up are coming from high damaging spells. Paladin, Rune Master, Evil Shaman, for instance, with Paladin only attacking selectively and mostly using his shield to corral enemies (like a sheep dog haha). Here you’d have the choice of Sleep Flower or Stone Cloud.

While great against mobs, though, I’m not sure how effective this team would be against bosses.... I’m thinking it might be better instead not to build your team around this tactic but maybe take either Rune Master or Evil Shaman to use it when convenient. Could make some parts of the Dragon Hole much easier :-)

And yes, Snowman would be great too, especially for melee teams, and also those enemies that resist Petrify :-)

5 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

the extra aggro should only apply if they get hit directly with the sleep flower spell not the reflected variant.
this is purely an effect of a spell hitting a monster, nothing special.

Thank you, this is what I initially assumed.