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Posts posted by thzfunnymzn

  1. 3 hours ago, GamingFiend said:

    Any chance on the addition or replacement of a spell? Through testing I found that the Warp Whistle retains its effect without the Warp Spell being present in the spell list (both in and outside of battle), so the Warp Spell is unnecessary and can be reworked into something else. I posted a couple of ideas in the Experimental magic build thread for possible Stamina options for Relm and Edgar since atm their Stamina builds are more gimmicky than useful, at least in 1.9.

    I'll personally chime in that I'm hoping more for Stamina to actually get a truly solid universal use, instead of having a bunch of minor uses all dependent upon stamina-based damage/heals & HP ELs to glue them together. (C/C being the one exception to this rule). Current idea I'm hoping on is individual statuses / status attacks having a variable amount of "how much stamina is needed to evade this status" (stamina is checked against 1..max instead of a hard 1..128 check), so that stamina can function as "status dodge" stat without requiring endgame-extreme stamina stacking to actually function in that regard.


  2. lol.

    For Mog, lower overall magic defense means that Mog will actually prefer using X-Bio (or X-Poison, as it is now known in 1.10), instead of X-Break or X-Quake, as it'd be nearly as strong as X-Break but at a much cheaper cost. Also means Dance Mog's Avalanche won't be any stronger than Razor Leaf, so Forest Suite ahoy!

    ...plz don't nerf enemy magic defense. It'll just bugger everything up.


  3. ; _ ;

    Rip X-Mog as an attacker. Though I guess Sage Stone is still all right for Dance Mog.

    Yeah, imo, Break-&-Quake X-Mog just ain't gonna perform well without changing some of the non-numeric special effects of Break and Quake. ('Twas why I mentioned +1 multiplier against Floating on Break. Try to aesthetically focus X-Mog around the idea of Float shenanigans. Alas, Quake is still an issue).


  4. There's definitely redundant enemies in BNW. Some of the randoms on the WoR overworld especially come to mind. Also, having a new set of enemies in Figaro / Narshe Cave, when the old set are getting a script "upgrade" past level 7 anyways, is a form of redundancy. There's probably some other random places where there are enemies that can easily be cannibalized to make interesting Colosseum foes.


  5. 1 hour ago, Reiker said:



    I was rather aggressive with you because I perceived your previous post as very passive-aggressive. While there was redundancy in what I posted, a couple of points I made did address issues you brought up in in this post. Namely: Terrato Sabin can serve the Protector role while providing Chakra / Mantra support, and Mantra not necessarily being redundant with Chakra team because several of the recipients of Chakra don't have good party healing (X-Strago, c/c Illumina, c/c Punisher, Rerise spam Shadow).

    Still, my apologies for my aggressive attitude.


  6. I did read and specifically addressed points made in your posts.

    You complained about not knowing what stam Sabin's role is. I set the ground for expanding the concept of stam Sabin to support Sabin (HP and stamina), which opens the door for support Sabin's the focus more on bulk, with potential for Cover (Terrato) rather than raw Chakra numbers (stamina).

    You complained about not knowing what Sabin's role is because of how weird Aurabolt looks in 1.10. I explained and partially agreed on what Aurabolt's purpose is and how it meshes with the overall role of what support Sabin is.

    You complained about Mantra's utility. I explained and partially agreed on what Mantra's new utility is, as well as showcasing examples of who support Sabin can support who don't have (major) healing capabilities, thus showing that Mantra isn't quite as redundant as it used to be when Sabin mostly supported Terra & Relm.

    You complained that support Sabin's traditional role is rather niche. I showcased examples in 1.9 and 1.10 of where support Sabin's traditional "Chakrabot" role has greatly improved, primarily through new strategies to support rather than increased numbers.

    I answered your posts. I agreed with your Colosseum complaints. Please, do not sweep everything around as if "no one actually read my posts." Please, explain what specific issues you are having, why you are having them, why you think they are problems, and how it is that no one is seeing your point.


  7. @Reiker

    I think you are making a mistake in conceiving of support Sabin only as stam Sabin. Support Sabin is actually Stray (stam) + Terrato (HP). If you want a protector Sabin, go heavy on the Terrato. Chakra still functions perfectly fine even on a heavy Terrato build - if Terrato Sabin's Chakra can do some major heavy-lifting and prove itself quite awesome in a Nowea Hard Type game (what I just did), then it's perfectly viable in a normal game. So, if you want a Protector Sabin, build heavy Terrato, use Mantra / Chakra, probably do some C/C Ocean Claw stuff to keep Sabin alive.

    Honestly, Chakra is still the main selling point of support Sabin. If you ain't using Chakra, you have no business using support Sabin; please use vig Sabin instead. That said, Chakra's got a lot of stealth buffs since....1.7 or 1.8? Osmose is only half as strong as it used to be in the early days, meaning that Relm actually appreciates Figaro Support now without being strictly dependent on it like an X-Sage would. C/C with auto-crit on a lower MP character (Phantom Celes, Mog) can guzzle through MP; said C/C builds are also bulky front-row, Cover users, meaning that they all ready synergize well with squishy mages (Strago & Relm). 1.10's change to Strago's Dark pushes X-Dark more towards being high power but high MP (see: other X-Sages); while Strago does have X-Osmose, unlike the other Sages, X-Sage Strago, like Relm, should actually appreciate Figaro Support now. Also, it is still the case the Figaro Support is helpful / critical for a Rerise spamming Shadow or non-Bank Setzer (should hopefully see more use, now that Chakra is supporting more attackers as well as some tanks).

    So while Chakra ain't any stronger (it shouldn't be), there's a lot more areas where it's useful now. Honestly, my only two disappointments right now a) support Sabin cannot support Merton spam while also benefiting from it's premier fire-absorb healing strat (he needs Lazy Shell just to get immunity; Edgar, meanwhile, can equip a Flame-/Multi-guard), and b) X-Mog, as an attacker, is still subpar and has gotten even worse (higher MP costs for no gain), so it's highly unlikely he'll find use when players have the shiny new X-Dark to abuse for big magical damage. (Note: as a supporter, Sage Stone on Mog grants X-Haste alongside other minor utility. Potentially useful for a Dancer Mog who wants extra party utility. But as an attacker, outside of Poison weaknesses, Sage Mog is very subpar).

    For Aurabolt, something I think you're missing is that Aurabolt is an early- / mid-game move. It's battle power is simply not high enough for it to remain functional past Daryl's Tomb. Aurabolt is primarily there to keep stam Sabin functional until he learns Mantra. I will grant that, imo, it does look very weird that support Sabin grows like that. Imo, it'd look cleaner if support Sabin replaced Aurabolt or Sonic Boom with one other utility / healing Dance, leaving the stamina damage Blitz to be learned sometime in the WoR. He'd have an early-game utility, mid-game, and late game. But that's an aside, not a balance argument I really want to bring to the table right now (it was discussed previously) since I know BTB isn't up for it, and it doesn't change the fact that, even now, Aurabolt is more meant as filler until support Sabin really grows into his own in the WoR.

    The new Mantra does mean Sabin can function as a decent healer prior to Chakra, as well as giving you some flexibility to heal with Sabin while your mage blows something up later in the game. Also, 1.9 and 1.10 have given some MP guzzles that don't have good heals, notably, X-Sage Strago, c/c Rod Mog, and Phantom Celes (new Mantra is better than unboosted Cure 2). True, Terra and Relm have Cure 3, but Terra is no longer the only character who appreciates Figaro Support.


    I just defended support Sabin. Things are definitely different from how they were in the old days.


  8. Front row characters getting targeted more means that, not C/C, but Counter all on its own, gets a slight buff, which I guess slightly pushes Cover to being an actually, ya' know, defensive technique (I guess?). IMO, this is a good thing, as too many people seem to be auto-associating the two concepts in their head, even though Counter has existed as a useful status for quite a long time before 1.9. Also, imo, Cover really should be a primarily defensive status for defending squishies, with C/C being a special set-up. A good special, mind you.

    Back row seeing less of any ST attack is straight up great for Thamasa, Shadow, Gau, any bulky healer / supporter, as well as Dragoon & Dragon Cyan. OTOH, stam Cyan has incentive to C/C in the front-row (with either type of katana, now), and a few bulky healers can probably make decent use of Cover as well (Terra, Setzer). Front-row, however, I'm concerned, as way back in....1.6?.....the WT crew got the "damaged reduction from back row" nerfed. Used to take half damage in back row, which created too large a gap in bulk between front and back row, especially because front row offered no advantage except physical damage, which wasn't exactly out-damaging magical damage at the time.

    Things are different now (Bushido is nuts, Cover exists, physical glass cannons seem more popular), but I'm still a little worried about the physical glass cannons as well as Sabin / Cyan in the front row. OTOH, bulky front-row units (primarily Celes and Edgar) love having a passive way to draw attention to them and away from the squishies, though they'll want some status relics if ST status attacks are also being drawn towards them. Guess it's an incentive to put HP/stam builds into the front row, a row traditionally only useful for vig builds, so it's overall a good thing. Just a little worried about how it'll interact with some of the squishier front-line units, and a little worried that back-row units might get away with too much. We'll see.

    (Also, just noticed that extra attacks means Image / Reflect dispel slightly faster in the front row. Stealth nerf to Morph vig Terra, lulz. Not recommending anything be done, other than paying attention for what happens)


  9. "Characters in back-row are now less likely to be targeted by enemy attacks"

    Is this for physicals, magical, status, and misc?

    Also, have you thought of making the "Wound" status happen at 1/4 max HP, instead of 1/16? Might allow Cover to actually help a character about to die from another attack, whereas 1/16 makes it difficult to get into the right range for such an event to happen without flat killing the character. Also, worried that this change AND the "Cover only covers back-row" might nerf Cover strats a little too much.

    This change and the Cover change make a LOT of sense, but I am a little worried about it making the back-row too good again. Cover tanks helps make the front-row useful, but outside of Cover tanks, I'm a little worried, especially for a more glass-cannony friends. (Shadow's good enough anyways in the front-row, mostly more worried about later game vig Sabin, vig Cyan, and glass cannon Locke. Still, this is all just spitballing and pondering. The above paragraphy is more substantial)


  10. Chiming in to say that I agree with Reiker and I think some of the counter-arguments to what he says are weightless.

    If it is, as seibaby says, technically possible to make Colosseum controllable, then even if there is no further change to the Colosseum, such a change would still be a pure QoL benefit to the player. The Colosseum, even without "perfect 1v1 scripts", would instantly become much more enjoyable, as well as a more proper fulfillment of what Square as aiming for with the Colosseum. "More proper fulfillment" is important here; axing the flavor of "1v1 Colosseum fights" pushes BNW away from being "FFVI fully realized," which, afaik, is pushing BNW outside of its intended design, on top of just plain pushing it in that direction when there's no necessary reason to do so.

    Furthermore, I think ya'll are all thinking to inside the box with the whole "these fights aren't good 1v1 encounters." I mean, aside from the fact that doing 1v1 vs a foe that is normally fought 4v1, what about pulling from old WoB (mini-)bosses for Colosseum fights?

    Bet Daryl's Soul? Re-fight the Soul Train! Make sure to Suplex him again as a "farewell, goodbye" to Daryl as she finally moves on into the afterlife.

    Bet Muscle Belt, Power Glove, or Rage Belt? Re-fight Dadaluma!

    Bet Gem Box? Re-Fight Number 024, Magimaster's little brother!

    Could even re-fight Number 128 with his little arms, for a 1v3 fight.

    Or, the granddaddy of them all, bet Atma Weapon to re-fight Atma Weapon!

    There's plenty of room here for more interesting 1v1 fights without having to have "perfect" scripts for the job. Heck, Siegfried is only a Colosseum enemy. His script, at least, could purely be designed for the Colosseum. Again, even without perfect scripts, controllability is a pure QoL change that has no reason not to exist.

    EDIT: I may have come across as to rude in this post. I apologize. Today's been a rough day.


  11. 39 minutes ago, SuperHario said:

    Ah, forgot this too.  I thought auto-crit was their only innate boost.  It's been a while since I've played, maybe 1.10 will be my next run.

    RE Rogue/Sage Mog/Setzer.  I don't really care either way, agreed that Sage Mog has more utility but Bank Setzer really has a hard time making use of all that MP; X-Setzer (SeXter, erp?) gives him a much more defined reason to exist.  As far as who fits the 'Rogue' character type, I'm not too fixated on the idea of 'classes' as any character can be spun to fit just about any persona.  Mog is Rogue b/c he's uncontrollable when he dances; Setzer is a Sage Cleric with all his white magic and inherent magical Slots ability.  In fact, he fits the role of Sage much more than Locke, who fits the role of Rogue being a thief, but I just didn't think getting rid of X-Locke would fly since he has such a deep magic selection.   In this scenario Rogue=Sh, Lo, Go; Sage=St, Mo, Se; note that the Sages now all have poison magic in common, so maybe this provides some justification as to why they can use it.

    I'm just try to propose ideas that make (varying degrees of) sense, whether that be aesthetically, thematically, storyline-wise, to improve gameplay, whatever you want to call it.  I know they're not all going to be used, I just like putting them out there to see what sticks.  I did notice a few naming changes for 1.10 that I've mentioned in the past, so my proposals are not being ignored entirely, and I think that even if my ideas aren't used they're at least stimulating others thoughts to come up with their own innovations.

    You and me both are in the same boat of throwing out ideas and seeing what sticks. And I like the conversation you've stimulated.

    Bank Setzer does have a defined reason to exist: bulk. Setzer's heals and offense are all either quite powerful or independent of the stats he can build, so it's feasible to simply build his HP until he's a giant undying blob. He won't burn MP particularly quickly unless it's a boss fight where one needs to spam Rerise and/or RegenX, true, but being a bulky healer is still a definitive role. 1.10 is introducing the Viper Darts to give him an attack to burn his MP on, though I'll grant that Sage Setzer is a bit more of an interesting way to do such.

    Sage Setzer wouldn't need any further work to be a viable option for Setzer, whereas Sage Mog has needed constant work to be a useful option for Mog (his utility works, but his wind/earth offense is sketchy). X-Magic with Rerise, Bio, Doom, and Cures is a solid selection of magic.

    X-Locke definitely ain't going anywhere. As for sharing poison magic in common, there is currently one thing all three Sages share in common: their offense is designed to be "Gobbles up huge amounts of MP but does huge damage". Dark, Fire 3, Break, Quake, all fit this theme. (Life 2 is also expensive).

    Honestly, I'm semi-open to the idea of Rogue Setzer, but not with the current balance of Slots. Otoh, I think Sage Setzer is overall more interesting than Rogue Setzer. Rogue Setzer is mostly "moar numbers" with Blackjack / Go Fish, while also boosting Cure 3 (and Bio, but lolz). ....Rogue Setzer might've been interesting back when Slots were random?


  12. 5 hours ago, SuperHario said:

    OK, but you've said yourself that with respect to statuses, if you want protection, you must wear the relics and not rely on stamina.  Likewise, if you want the buff, you're likely to just cast it or wear a relic.  I've always used brushes as a free heal or to break muddle/sleep and viewed the proc as bonus.  That's why I feel like just giving brushes the increased proc rate off the bat is an easier solution.  The increased proc rate on radiant gown is still relevant for elemental rods.

    If brushes need to be improved further, make them hit with full power from the back row or effectively make them remedies such that they cure most status ailments.


    Elemental Rods have "increased spellcast rate" built in. "Increased spellcast rate" cannot stack, so equipping a Rod with Radiant Gown does not give you any higher of a spellcast rate.

    This is why Brushes were given innate X-Fight. X-Fight does increase the spellcast rate right, but in such a manner that it can stack with "increased spellcast rate". X-Brush means that, since the brush is hitting twice, you get two chances for the spellcast to go off. So, effectively, instead of a 25% chance that increases to 50% with Radiant, it's a 44% chance that increases to 75% with Radiant. This should be enough to make the spellcast actually relevant, though you'd probably want spd Relm to truly capitalize on using brushes.

    5 hours ago, SuperHario said:

    Agreed on a Rogue Setzer with the free Slots and pause buffering to get nearly guaranteed spin of choice.  Could he become the Sage Stoner and Mog goes Rogue (since Dance is uncontrollable, it won't be quite as potent, and rod-swinging Mog definitely likes this).  Sage Setzer doesn't have X-Break or Quake, but X-Rerise is pretty nice, and gives a reason for The Bank to draw upon his account, especially with Starlet getting the +25% MP boost.  If this is done, Setzer would need one more high power black magic.  Best implementation of this is giving brushes Remedy-like ability (could different brushes cure different ailments?), and swapping out Remedy on Starlet for something, probably Meteor (shooting stars=meteors).  Bahamut can drop Meteor since you must get Startlet in order to have Relm; and could add something different to Bahamut if desired.

    I forgot Blizzard Orb gives +25% Magic, I just checked the PrintMe and it wasn't in there.  A better option might be to give Gogo access to the Rogue Cloak (isn't found in the Triangle Island Cave?), instead of Gau.

    So new setup would be Nirvana=Ed, Sa, Cy; Rogue=Sh, Mo, Go; Sage=Lo, St, Se.

    Aesthetically, I'd honestly rather have Rogue Setzer than Sage Setzer. Mechanically, Sage Setzer wouldn't need any magic shuffling: X-Rerise and X-Bio are fine. Honestly would give me an excuse to ask for Blackjack to be nerfed again, since anyone who wants to leverage mag Setzer's offense could just be told to use X-Bio.

    Aesthetically, I also prefer Sage Stone on Mog rather than Rogue Cloak. (Mog doesn't strike me as a rogue type). Mechanically, I can't put my finger on it, but Rogue Mog strikes me as a bad idea. Probably b/c I think it'd lead to all mag Mog's just being Blues / Suite Dancers and b/c of the loss of X-Magic utility (Haste, Float, Slow, Sap, Poison).


  13. 5 hours ago, SuperHario said:

    - Brushes seem like a little extra tweaking is needed as hitting twice is an annoyance for instances where the spell casts twice.  What if they instead just have the increased proc property (ala veils) and ignore defense (if this isn't already the case). 

    As annoying as it potentially is, this is probably the very first time in BNW's history where I feel like it's worthwhile to pursue Brush tactics with Relm in a serious manner (outside of extreme speed-run strats, * cough * Mishrak * cough *  : p ). X-Fight on Brushes can pair with the increased spellcast rate on Radiant Gown later in the game to increase total chance of seeing the buff come out at 75%. (Prior to Gown, X-Fight gives a 44% of seeing the spellcast).

    5 hours ago, SuperHario said:

    - The Nirvana/Rogue/Sage loop makes sense, but it made me think more generally about who gets to use each.  Nirvana=Edgar, Sabin, Cyan; Rogue=Locke, Shadow; Sage=Locke, Mog, Strago.  However, there are eight human males (Ed, Sa, Cy, Lo, Sh, St, Se, Gau) plus Mog (Gogo is gender fluid), so maybe each relic should get 3 unique users.  Nirvana and Sage stay the same, while Gau and Setzer go Rogue (Locke loses it).

    This is a very interesting aesthetic. I, however, am utterly scared of a Rogue Setzer. Also, I'm not sure how are resident X-Locke lovers would feel about Sage Locke losing the Rogue Cloak. (Probably doesn't hurt his healing that much, but it's the elemental usage that I'm concerned about). Also, Gau's got Blizzard Orb, so Rogue Cloak is kinda redundant on him. Then again, I guess Blizzard Orb could be equipped by someone else or soemthing, iunno.

    It's an interesting though, but I doubt it'll get anywhere.


  14. Eh, I can take a preliminary stab at FC balance and # of options available to player.

    Initial spoiler tag here just opens up to each character with their tl;dr. Opening those character's spoiler tags leads to a "thinking out loud, wall of text", so reader beware.


    Terra: Mostly fine. In and of herself, only potential idea is Maduin = Stam +2 (with Tritoch = Mag +1 / MP +15) and a pre-Atma stam sword (carefully balanced) to make stam build available and functional for FC. Otherwise, any balance issues are probably coming from other characters being op, maybe from c/c needing some work.


    - Number of builds are somewhat reduced. HP/MP, vig, and mag are available, but mag simply isn't worthwhile until Kefka's Tower, and stam is unavailable. I'll still, again, put forth my idea for Maduin = Stam +2, Tritoch = Mag +1 / MP +15, though with also adding in a pre-Atma stam sword (definitely with low BPow, lest it overtake vig). That way, stam build, at least, is both available and functional for the FC. Don't think it's possible to make mag both available and functional.

    - HP/MP Terra has most of her options and feels neither op nor up. She's missing her boss killing Ice 3 and Bolt 3, and cannot be paired with Chakra, but that's about it. Storm kills IAF, Fire 3 (if at lvl.20) kills Gigantos (low mg.def), status control for randoms, Cure 2 and Life with Carbunkl ELs and Magic Cube, Shell, the bulk and relics (Knight or Hero) for Cover support, and Break as a quite useful damage option. (As much as I dislike it for Mog, 1.10's proposed 32 MP cost for Break is probably very fair for Terra). She's even got Reflect & Carbunkl for Atma strats. I suspect she's mostly ignored because of Setzer (Go Fish, Blackjack) and Celes (spd, Ice 2, Bolt 2).

    - vig Terra has an assortment of options and doesn't feel op, though iunno how she compares to HP/MP Terra. She's got Morph, plenty of weapon options, c/c, and her magics. The last of those options is slight weak because Phoenix is missing, so a Bismark + Phoenix combo for extra MP (elemental sniping, heals) isn't available, but the reduced uses for elemental sniping on FC compared to WoR make that less of an issue. (Technically an issue for vig + Cure/Life hybrids, but that's hardly the end of the world >_>). I haven't significantly tested Morph's balance on the FC, but what I have done and the theory-craft doesn't seem bad: she's got Wind/Water resistance for Ultros and Reflect strats / Smoke Bomb support for Atma. Physical defense support options for Ultros (III and IV) are definitely limited, so that's an issue. She seems fine. Only potential issue she might have is the Rod users (Ice and Bolt) overpowering / cutting it to close to her Morph game, though she probably c/c's better than any of them. iunno about's c/c balance for her. Having Smoke Bombs buyable in Thamasa might be nice insurance for the player not forgetting to stock up for Shadow for the FC (could also have Shurikens and Sakura / Kunai be available).

    Locke: Biggest issues center around his magic / healing game being almost completely WoR-locked (excepting Healing Shiv) and c/c possibly being imbalanced. Ideas for former are sketchy, including stuff like early Sage Stone or early Rogue Cloak, though where they'd be so as to not be missable, iunno. c/c is an on-going discussion.


    - Lack of Phoenix and other WoR magic options is very noticeable. Lack of Bolt 2 strats for IAF / Ultros is probably all right, but his potential as one of the game's primary healers is locked to the WoR. (Celes is taking over his role for the WoB). Little can be done about his MP other than the Magic Cube or some potential base MP (latter is highly unlikely). A WoB Sage Stone would open up his magical options despite the low MP and it's probably mechanically fine on Locke right now b/c of his low MP. But iunno if it's right aesthetically, and iunno if it's mechanically fine on Strago or Mog at this time. Rogue Cloak could boost Cure 2 healing, though that's just no the same as FC x-healing strats. On aesthetic grounds and on balance concerns for Strago & Mog, iunno if much will be done here, so his mid-game healing potential is limited to the hidden Healing Shiv weapon.

    - Kirin + Ramuh is really the best and only build option for Locke on the FC. Ifrit's extra speed simply cannot compete with an actual HP stat or more damage per blow, especially since Locke's support game is limited to Shiv and Item, both of which Shadow can handle anyways (and he's forced), though Locke's bulkier. This....actually makes a decent counter-argument against "no early Sage Stone"? As then there'd be more of a reason to do something besides "bulky c/c" Locke for the FC. Issue is that Sage Stone has to not be missable, so iunno where it'd go.

    - My experience with Fighter Locke on the FC is limited to my last two games of "excessive Kirin, mostly Fight command with big bulk". As this topic showed, Locke's also got plenty of options with c/c and a good weapon selection. (Elemental blades, Blood Sword, Rising Sun, Demonsbane). Iunno how balanced he is. I played him inefficiently my last two games, but even then, he felt quite strong. He definitely doesn't need any buffs, though it sounds like any nerfs would be strictly limited to the c/c game (which, tbf, was only recently introduced, so its balance is obviously not perfect).

    Edgar: Not imbalanced, but restricted to "Tank Edgar" strats, with Drill potentially confusing people as to what his real benefits are (Dragoon with Elemental Blades, Cover without c/c, utility). Idea for mag Edgar is replacing Drill with WoB counterpart to Defib, both pushing people away from Drill and giving mag Edgar an actual game plan. Also, so that Dragoon is useful earlier in WoB (and not forgotten on FC), Stout Spear -> 2x Damage to Humans Spear, Fire Lance -> Stout Spear, nerf BioBlaster's BPow.


    - All critical esper options are available. Palidor is missing, but that's fair. It's not like Dragoon Edgar can only, or even most efficiently, be used with pure Palidor ELs.

    - Tank Edgar feels fine. Drill's weak, but he's got HP/armor, Cover options with Spear and his bulk, Dragooning with Elemental Blades, plenty of debuffs / control, and even Haste. Cure 2's weak right now b/c of no Nirvana and limited MP, but oh well. If he's unpopular on the FC, I suspect it's b/c people aren't making full use of his available options. I suspect it's because they're thinking of Drill rather than Dragoon, Cover without c/c, or debuffs. Nothing inherently wrong with Edgar.

    - mag Edgar, while he exists, is missing buid-defining Tools. While Flash is unnecessary (Blasters, yo), the lack of Defib and Battery is noticeable, as is his reduced MP for his Cure 2 game and the lack of Nirvana Band. Right now, mag Edgar mostly feels like an alternative vig Edgar, trading HP for spd. Especially feels this way since Dragooning with Elemental Blades raises spellcast rate, so magic is being used to a degree. Still aesthetically displeasing though. Straightforward fix would be to have either a WoB counterpart to the Defib or for a WoB Battery. Kneejerk is that the former sounds better, though iunno if it's still op, up, or balanced. As a warning: mag Edgar isn't weak on the FC. It's just he feels like a vig Edg variant instead of feeling like himself (support Edg). So, if WoB-balanced Defib is a wee too much for vig Edgar, it could be balanced perhaps by taking away another option that Edg doesn't really need?

    - If Drill is throwing off people's Tank Edgar game and if WoB Defib counterpart is good, obvious solution is to axe the drill and replace with a weak Defib counterpart, probably buyable after the IMF. No Drill forces people out of the rut of "Drill mindset" with vig Edg, weak Defib lets mag Edg actually play his game a bit?

    - Related to no Drill is that Dragoon, while fine on the FC, is still weak prior to FC. Too long of a hang-time for far too little damage. Edg is still a boss b/c of Blasters, but it's aesthetically displeasing that Dragoon is purposeless early on. Simplest fix is to create a spear that does 2x Damage to Humans, to be used against Dadaluma, Number 024, Kefka, etc, etc, and to nerf BioBlaster's BPow if necessary to counterbalance. Fire Lance is redundant with Flametongue, so it can become the old Stout Spear while the current Stout Spear becomes this 2x damage to human spear. Jump's hangtime is still an ugly issue, but oh well.

    - hyb Edg doesn't exist b/c mag Edg doesn't have his stuff ye, and b/c Palidor + Siren isn't a thing yet. Nothing special should be done about this, mostly noting it.

    Sabin: Biggest issue is stam Sabin lacking build-defining options, but 1.10's proposed Mantra change may just fix that. Otherwise, definitely strong on the FC, but I think most people can read 1.10 changelog when it's out and then opine on if mid-game vig Sabin is balanced or not. I...need other people's input here, to be honest.


    - Terrato Sabin doesn't exist, oh noes!1! This is....actually modestly important, as with neither Terrato nor Chakra, support / stam Sabin is playing a radically different game from what he plays later on. Terrato and Chakra not existing now is fine, so biggest issue is making sure Mantra is appealing, which 1.10 is slated to do. (While Aurabolt exists, it's mostly another ST damage option, which makes stam Sabin just feel like an alternative vig Sabin. One could argue for stam Fire Dance for stam Sabin being AoE and Mantra, but Mantra is by far the more important one here: so long as 1.10's proposed idea works, not sure if anything really needs to happen to Fire Dance).

    - vig Sabin has plenty of options and is a boss. Probably a few too many honestly, but I think 1.10 is slated to handle most of that. Also, c/c Ocean Claws are a thing, lolz.

    - hyb Sabin isn't really a thing right now, mostly b/c Mantra and Chakra ain't things and b/c current theory is to build more Golem than Stray for HP. Dunno if proposed 1.10 Mantra might change that.

    Celes: Only potential issue / idea I see is c/c balance, as well as how mag Celes' offense relates to vig Celes' offense, since the former is a decidedly better support tank.


    - Technically lacks some options from missing Alexander and Crusader, but that's probably fine. She still has plenty of option for bulk, vigor, spd/mag, or even hybridization.

    - vig Celes, like vig Terra, has a good assortment of options and doesn't feel op. She's got Seraph + vig gives bulk with MP for Cure/Life/utility, she's got Phantom + Seraph + armor for c/c, a good weapon selection, and Runic (lol). Things missing are Alex for a full-in tank build, as well as ??? for having Cover and Counter on one relic. Also, concerns about c/c in this topic. Other noticeable is that Elemental Blades overlap with Ice 2 and Bolt 2; I hear mag Celes is more popular than vig Celes, and I suspect this would be the reason why. Nothing can or should be done about Alex. Not sure if anything should be done about ??? either, though there's a better argument there? c/c discussion, I need other people's input. Overlap of elemental magic and blades is concerning, but iunno what can be done other than a more varied weapon selection, which 1.10 is slated to do with a stronger Morning Star. Other people might have more insight here?

    - mag Celes is a boss. Proper elementals for hammering weaknesses, primary healer with Cure/Life, bulk, spd+ ELs, potential Cover support, and utility options with Rerise/Seraph, Haste, and Safe. She's A+ amazing. Iunno if she's quite op, but even if not, she's definitely top-of-the-line of non-op builds here. Iunno what can or should be done. Kneejerk idea is that vig Celes ought to be better offense while mag Celes ought to be better support (spd+ and MP+ and back-row for the latter, weapon selection for the former). So, that says either look at elemental magic or vig Celes' offense (c/c)? Having a WoB c/c relic certainly might change things, esp since vig Celes was supposed to be one of the one's defined as being great c/c. But iunno about c/c's mid-game balance. Changing elemental magic is.....probably not gonna happen, and honestly, a much trickier proposition anyways. (Only option is higher MP cost, but I doubt that sounds fair).

    - hyb Celes is a thing. Anyone play Ramuh + Siren on the FC? Sounds like she wouldn't really grow into her own until higher EL counts and Alex anyways.

    Cyan: 1.10 is slated to balance most of the long-standing balance issues here. Only other potential issue is c/c balance, which is the topic of discussion. 1.10 is slated to have something else that might effect c/c balance to, but I'm not the best judge of that, so wait for changelog to evaluate and opine on that.


    - Alexander isn't a thing, oh noes!1! OK, so, we can't build Bismark + Alexander, which is annoying. Kirin + Bismark for a vigor Cyan with some bulk is still a thing though. It leads to an annoying respec later on, that's it.

    - For vig Cyan and stam Cyan, biggest issue I see is that Dragon hits really hard, making it somewhat pointless to build Bismark right now, and the potential balance of c/c. Dragon vs. vigor is slated to be worked on in 1.10. c/c is the discussion of the topic.

    - there anything else that could even be an issue for Cyan? He's got whatever bulk he needs, he's actually got a meaningful AoE right now with Storm / Bismark for the IAF, he's not meant to be a great healer. Only real issue is that Kazekiri isn't useful, but 1.10 is, again, slated to do something about that.

    Shadow: c/c Shadow is worrisome, might be some glitches with c/c on Evade or Interceptor. Having a few throwables in Thamasa would be nice, as a heads up. Otherwise, most balance discussion here is moot aside from insuring he's not op or up. I would need help for any further analysis. Early Fenrir would be nice, but it's hardly critical, and probably not worth the effort.


    - Is forced, so balance vs other characters is a moot point. Also, he doesn't feel op. Tricky to use, but probably not up either. Only Phantom exists right now, that can't be fixed. So, only potential issue is number of options he has, potential character synergy, and making sure he's properly leveled in level and EL. 1.10 is slated to give him an option or two.

    - c/c Shadow is worrisome. Are we sure c/c is actually havling evade and/or ignoring Interceptor?

    - For the most part, I would need other people to opine on Shadow. (He's not a favorite of mine). Only issue I know of is that it's easy to forget to stock up on Throwables for him, since the stock is back in Jidoor. Solution would be having a few stockables in Thamasa, as a heads up to the player. Full supply probably ain't necessary. Perhaps just Smoke Bombs, Shuriken or Kunai, and Sakura. (Shuriken and Kunai, without Sakura, is an option, but I'd personally rather the player be able to buy Shadow's latest weapon).

    - Early Fenrir lets Shadow immediately go either Phantom or Fenrir somewhat nice, as otherwise, the player is banking ELs or respec'ing if they want to go heavy Fenrir. Hardly critical though.

    Gau: 1.10 is slated to fix several problems with Rage balance. Stamina's use as a stat for Gau, while related to this discussion, is honestly a whole 'nother discussion entirely. A stam-based heal balanced for the WoB is an idea, but probably not happening. Early Fenrir is an idea, but that's a can of worms.


    - WoB Gau balance, lol. 1.10 is slated to make multiple changes here, so most of what I might evaluate is moot. In terms of Gau's multiple Rage options, my biggest concern is that Brawler and Cephalid tend to overshadow other options, since they hit hard and key off the only stat Gau can build right now. I personally wish stamina did something for Gau other than "stam-damage Rages and bigger heals on Harvester", but that's a whole 'nother discussion I ain't getting into. Best idea I have now is to insure available Rages are balanced with each other (1.10 is slated to do that) and nothing is op. A very weak stam-based heal on a WoB Rage is an idea, but that'd require creating a whole 'nother move to insure that it's not imbalanced, which probably isn't happening.

    - An early Fenrir would be nice, but that's a can of worms right there.

    Setzer: If it weren't for Slots, he'd be fine, though it'd nice if Dice were more useful. Slots, however, are stupidly op. Unfortunately, fixing them either requires making them useless later on, magic programming skills to allow for having some Slots now but others later, or reverts Slots back to being randomized.


    - Neither Starlet nor Heiji's Coin exist, so reliable GP Toss isn't an option. Also, no Starlet means it's not possible to beef up Setzer's Cover % or status / fractional evade %, which is something you'd want a healer. For now, he's limited to HP/MP, or to bigger Slots/heals with magic. I don't perceive anything that can be done about this.

    - Obviously, Setzer is premier Cleric. HP, heavy armor, Green Beret or Hero (Cover), infinite Go Fish supply, Cure 2, Rerise/Seraph. Magic Cube with pure Seraph ELs gives him a fat MP supply for Rerise / Cure 2 in the Atma fight. (Chakra unnecessary, just use an Ether or two if needed, this would be a fight to use them in). Outside of Slots, he's a little limited on the offense, as he should be. Shoat's slated to get an MP cost increase (48), which is fine, since it's an underrated tool for clearing randoms. No Daryl's Soul, limited human/undead, and weak Dice means there's no real use for his Fight, technically an issue. Mostly, it'd be nice if Dice weren't garbage, but that's an issue for BTB and seibaby to discuss. (Someone seemed to like Dice + Hyper Wrist. Maybe Dice actually is fine, presuming some specialized strats? Iunno). Possibly more popular than other bulky healers, but excepting Slots, I think that's more an issue of perception and popularity rather than actual balance, assuming that I'm even right about popularity.

    - Bio's slated to get a small change (60 BPow instead of 54, sets Sap). Still mostly useful for sniping Ninjas and Gigantos, but it does give Setzer a little extra magical oomph if he doesn't want to use Slot attacks. Nothing really wrong here.

    - Slots. Slots, slots, slots, slots, slots. Blackjack is absurdly powerful (and slated to get even stronger), Chocobop gives an AoE Stop IIRC, and Go Fish is an infinite healing supply while trekking through the FC. Being quite un-moderate in my opinion, there's really nothing balanced about these things, they're humongously op. There's really no way to fix that without Slots becoming weaker later on without a way to say "You have these potential Slot results at this point in the game, while you get these other ones later in the game." Otherwise, imo, only other way to balance them would be to revert them to being truly randomized instead of skill-based and to find some other method of making it worthwhile to go heavy Shoat on Setzer.

    Mog: Highly restricted, though what's available is top-of-the-line for the FC. Mog balance is a huge can of worms with an ugly history. Ideas here include an early Palidor, Maduin = Stam +2 (Tritoch = Mag +1 / MP +15), and early Sage Stone. Dance balance is a can of worms.


    - Highly limited in available options. Most noticeably, he lacks Palidor, Terrato, or the Moogle Charm. Also, there's really not much of a difference between Maduin and Shoat, in terms of ELs. Does have Magus Hat or Magic Cube to get MP for using his magic, but the only real options right now are some debuffs and Bio, so it's not worthwhile. FC Mog is highly restricted to being Dance Mog right now.

    - Lack of Terrato cannot be helped. An early Palidor was brought up some time ago. It didn't make it in, but I bring it up again as it would be REALLY nice in terms of opening up Mog's build options. I mentioned under Terra the thought of Maduin = Stam +2 (and Tritoch = Mag +1 / MP +15) for her balance. For Mog, that change and an early Palidor would open up build variety for Mog on the FC? Lack of Moogle Charm still restricts mixing Dance with other options and restricts Palidor to normal Dragoon or smacking things with Rods, but that's probably all right. Also, early Palidor brings Haste and SlowX, opening up Mog's magic utility.

    - Early Palidor, as a build, would be restricted to normal Dragoon (spear or Rod), smacking things with Rods, and high speed for Magic / Item utility. Lack of Dance utility is fine, some options should still be WoR restricted. Biggest issue here is that Spear Jumping is far less useful than Rod Jumping on the FC, with neither being too amazing for randoms b/c of hangtime, so Mog would want to use Rising Suns and such. (Lol, he actually would use those weapons). Most people, however, conceive of Rods as magic weapons, despite vig Mog technically being quite good with them. Rod tactics all ready exists, so early Palidor, as a build, is probably conceived as being somewhat shaky (not terribly different from other options), although the utility of speed still technically exists.

    - Pumping a Stam +2 esper is dumb, unless you just don't care for Forest Suite's damage and want to extra resistance to status / fractional. Although for the latter, if you're running Forest Suite, you're probably also running relic immunities and Gaia Gear, so that's a moot point. Stam +2 / Mag +2 combo is nothing new. Only real gain is mixing Stam +2 and early Palidor. You wouldn't do that for the offense (can't mix Jump with Dance, can't mix Counter with Dance) but for the extra speed while dancing Forest Suite, so as to try and get your potential Harvester turn slightly faster. Not really convinced it's hugely amazing, definitely would be less popular than stam/mag.

    - I mentioned Sage Stone for mag Locke earlier. For Mog, without early Palidor, probably not all that useful. Would lack the utility Palidor brings (Slow, Haste), so you'd mostly be restricted to X-Bio or X-Break, which would compete with Water Rondo. Water Rondo wins, obviously. With Palidor, Sage Mog would have some neat utility unavailable to Dance Mog (no Charm = no mixing Dance with anything), and X-Bio would be good damage at a somewhat affordable price. Mog would still burn MP / Tinctures / Ethers, but it'd be an option; if anything else, it'd provide double Haste and double Slow for Atma. Anyone mad enough to try and use the ultra expensive X-Break would at least do huge damage, comparable to Morph Terra or Rod strats.

    - Dance balance is a can of worms. Mog is definitely strong right now, easily one of the best for the FC thanks to Water Rondo, Forest Suite, Wind Song, and Earth Blues.

    Strago: Underpowered for the FC, but only concrete idea I have there is early Sage Stone, which iunno if it swings things too far the other way or not. Certainly debateable aesthetically? Could argue he needs a better Lore selection, but iunno what one would do there.


    - Only one build available, the magic build. Odin won't come for a long time. Nothing can be done about this.

    - Somewhat eclectic and weak options available with Lore and Magic. Aqua Rake is great for IAF and Ice 2 at least hits a weakness for Atma, though its perhaps low down on the list as a way to abuse that weakness? Other than this, only real option within Lore/Magic is Reflect and Slow for Atma, Holy Wind, or the possibility to learn Blowfish for acceptable damage. I'd personally rank Strago as one of the worst options to bring to the FC, unless you're abusing Rod strats (which isn't anything Mog or Relm can't do).

    - Rod + Black Belt is a very interesting option for Strago on the FC, but it comes at a price (front row) and it's not inherently different from anything Mog or Relm couldn't do (aside from Mog not having any MP). Biggest power boost is having Bolt Rod for Ultros and Chupon, though Ice Rod + Black Belt for Atma is still probably better than Ice 2, provided Strago doesn't croak (hint: use Smoke Bombs). Again, though, it's nothing Mog or Relm can't do, and it's a "veteran" strat.

    - I've mentioned Sage Stone for Locke and Mog. Strago is the real balance concern for an early Sage Stone. X-Magic with Ice 2, Shell, and Reflect represents a very big power boost to Strago, especially against Atma. Otoh, I was talking about how Strago is one of the weakest options available for the FC, so maybe this is perfectly fine?

    - Something, something, Lore options on FC?

    Relm: With good brushes proposed for 1.10, I'm not sure I can pinpoint anything that's particularly imbalanced. Bringing her to FC does commit one to two frail people on the FC. I'd need other people's opinions here.


    - Technically has two build options available: heavy Zoneseek, or heavy Ifrit. Lacks Bahamut for Ifrit, which means Zoneseek might edge out without careful MP management on heavy Ifrit; 1.10 is slated to modify Brushes to be more useful, which certainly would represent a very useful thing for Ifrit Relm. Lacks Starlet, but stam Relm is a gimmick anyways. (I'm certainly not biased).

    - Despite her frailty, dunno if she's up. You are committed to two frail people (Relm and Shadow), but she's got Life, Rerise, Sketch (Flare/Raze vs Atma), Ifrit summon, Zoneseek summon, and actually useful brushes proposed for 1.10. There may or may not be an issue with Sketch's usefulness vs IAF, Ultros, and the FC mobs (Glare vs Dragon, lol), but otherwise, she's in a surprisingly decent place. Oh, and Bolt / Ice Rod strats, which kinda counter-argues needs Sketch anyways for IAF and Ultros. Iunno, there's a lot here in theory, but I'd need other opinions about her balance her.

    - Brushes, again, are getting useful in 1.10, so I really don't know what else is wrong here.



    • Aside from Slots, stam Cyan, and maybe c/c, nothing's really op. stam Cyan is getting taken care of in 1.10, without totally nerfing him. Mog and mag Celes are definitely top-of-the-line here, so I guess one could look at that?
    • Biggest issue is that many characters lack variety. Most Notably: Locke, Edgar, and Mog. Biggest proposals I have there are a WoB Sage Stone (somewhere where it's unmissable), replacing the Drill with a weaker WoB counterpart to the Defib, and an early Palidor.
    • Strago's definitely underpowered. Gau may or may not be, but he's complicated. Early Sage Stone (from above) is a potential option for Strago, but...iunno.

  15. 12 hours ago, Nomjitsu said:

    Gogo has better things to do than jump around all day anyway. Replace him with Fig's chakra Sabin idea, though I feel weird having a non-magic user ingest mp he won't use, and Edgar would miss the juice while in the air, which makes Sabin feel underused all because I want to gamble on the moogle toss. Perhaps modify the toss so that Umaro doesn't feel underused when Mog isn't by his side. 

    Honestly, I see nothing wrong with pairing at least Dragoon Edgar with Umaro and Mog to try and get better chances of Umaro throwing Mog (1/3 chance to 1/2 chance). Just would need the 4th party member to be a healer / support instead of yet another attacker.

    2 hours ago, Nesouk said:

    Put Umaro into Berserk it doubles his strength and for some reason he can still use all of his ability which will get the boost from berserk ^^

    ...This is beautiful. You know what, I think I might actually bring Umaro to Kefka's more often. Hero Ring Cover strats and Berserk damage multiplier sounds great.


  16. Interesting.

    For Shadow, is either he seeing full evasion under Cover, or is Interceptor's extra evasion chance actually working with Cover, despite Interceptor not countering? Shadow...really shouldn't be the team tank.

    I'm torn on C/C Dance Mog. On the one hand, Forest Suite + c/c Rods seems like the ultimately in a defensive Mog set-up, and I'm not totally certain it's necessarily bad (probably because I find the random nature of Dances to be a limiting factor on Dance's power). Otoh, it completely runs all over my favorite Sage Stone Mog, since I perceive Dance + c/c as probably being far preferably to Dance + Sage. Course, this is all late WoR, once Mog's got actual HP (Terrato). Seems like, early on, he just needs to stick with Dance.

    My initial thought on Unicorn Edgar is you'd want to two-hand a spear for the innate Cover + extra power. Otoh, yeah, c/c Edgar ain't hot b/c of low Cover% and weak counters. Cover ain't bad utility on Edgar, but it ain't making a build. (Problem with Cover being used more c/c purposes, rather than as mostly a defensive tool). While its disappointing that Siren Edgar lacks his defining support Tools on the FC, his speed + Edgar's normal tankiness should be enough to make him plenty useful on the FC. Though you'd still play him as an alternative vig Edgar at the time, rather than as raw support.

    C/C is definitely becoming a way of weaponizing one's HP score. Which...probably makes HP-based builds even better than they all ready are? Personally disappointed that I hear more about c/c rather than Cover as a purely defensive strat, as I had initially pitched the idea to BTB as a way of building true Defender roles in FFVI. Still, lack of personal experience means I can only comment so much on balance.



  17. ...I have simply never considered trying to abuse "Umaro Throws Mog for 9999" strats. And, with a severe lack of experience, I'm not sure how to theory-craft them properly. Kneejerk thought is that they're technically sub-optimal, although probably very fun and perhaps far less sub-optimal than other sub-optimal options (mostly sub-optimal because of Umaro, though Cover Umaro does exist nowadays?). Still, without at least 2-3 runs of actually giving it a shot, I simply cannot comment, not even pairing Sage Mog with it.

    Looking back through this topic, it seems SirNewtonFig kinda hit on the only real gameplan I thought was really worthwhile for Sage Stone Mog: a Dance Mog, primarily Forest Suite, who uses X-Magic for its utility and more reliable damage. And, in that regard, his conclusion isn't totally dissimilar to mine: the gameplan works, but it doesn't feel totally satisfying. (I've traditionally looked to X-Mog as a full-on "X-Quake blaster caster with Crystal Orb", which....I don't think really works out too well). Again, never played Sage Mog + Umaro, though I'd wager that if it's this Dance Sage Mog with Umaro, it's probably working fine.


  18. Defeated Kefka. Had to level grind up to lvl 34/25 in order to defeat him though. T1, T2, and Kefka himself are no jokes.

    Team: HP/MP Terra, mag Edgar, mag Strago, mag Relm. (spd Relm would've been much superior. Oh well)

    General Strategy: Strago is damage unit using 1.10's X-Dark. Occasionally uses Black Omen. Uses Shield prior to T2, and Holy Wind / X-Items as needed. Relm is Rerise / Cure 3 support, as well as occasional damage. Terra is tank and healer, with the occasional damage. Edgar provides the critical SlowX for T1 and T2, as well as being another support unit, especially since I'm low on Ethers. (Fast foes = lots of healers, one big damage dude).

    T1: Strago picks off Face (9999 x2 damage thx to weakness), Left Arm (also big damage, low mg.def), and then Right Arm (also big damage). Edgar uses SlowX, Hastes / heals everyone, occasionally run Battery support (I'm low on Ethers). Relm and Terra do their thing. Strago sets Shield before going to fight T2.

    T2: Lost twice due to sheer bad luck (Berserk and Freeze; no Ribbon and no stamina). SlowX is essential to getting this guy under control. T1 and T2 are perhaps the only fights in the game where I feel like I actually want high stamina. Memorized actual opponents here: top-right Hit was nuked with X-Dark (9999 x2), bottom-right Tiger was nuked with double Ice 2 (6000 x2), top-central Tools is nuked with Terra's Bolt 3 (9999), and far-left Magic is nuked with non-elemental, ignores target defense (Ultima, Black Omen, Flare; the Big Magics).

    T3: Breather battle. Nuke the Girl with Big Magics, keep everyone healed up, pick off Sleep with X-Dark. Getting Rerise back up after T2 is desirable for Kefka.

    Kefka: After summoning Bahamut and Ragnarok (9999), the only attack that ever happens is X-Dark, doing 4.5k - 5k twice over. Surprisingly smooth when only one guy is attacking (still a very tense battle that burns many X-items), though I had a scare when Relm got Muddled and nuke Terra with a Punisher Rod. Kefka never used Goner.

    Kefka hard-walled me when I tried fighting him at lvl.30. (Surprisingly, I made it past T2 once, though with Shadow replacing Terra b/c of T1). His elemental tier 3's OHKO'd the squishes and I only had one healer. Gaining levels for HP certainly helps.


    I have conquered NHT. I've had my fill of challenge, next game is a normal BNW. Might even get the chance to play with c/c more outside of Celes and Umaro. Also, Terrato Sabin!


  19. Commenting on 1.9 in general:


    HP/MP Terra, is the same old, same old. Great bulky healer with plenty of opportunities to snipe a weakness, good attack on FC with Break, needs MP support in WoR either in form of Chakra or Gem Box, though has good debuffs for randoms at least. Only new thing is possibility of front-row Cover support (Hero Ring). She definitely has no use for Maduin, outside of an endgame respec for Ultima spam. (Which, IIRC, only nets about 1000 - 1500 extra damage with Ultima).

    Kirin Locke, Imma actually play correctly next time by snagging Ramuh ELs and using a Genji Shield to take hits. It's not my personal preference, but I can see why people would like endgame c/c Kirin + Ramuh, forsaking Phoenix. Maybe not my preference though. (It does remind me of an old idea to turn Phoenix into HP +15 / MP +25, encouraging Kirin as the big HP esper for Locke.) Also, Omega was lol. (Omega's a bugger to balance as an attack. Terra's got Morph and a +2 esper to use it well, but as it's no longer a stat stick, Edgar and Celes would rather just trade it out for a Mirage Vest. Dunno if a proper Kirin Locke would utilize Omega Valiance well, or if even he might prefer to just swap it out).

    Unicorn Edgar is lol. Probably fine early on, but as a pure defensive move, Cover can't carry a whole build (chances are too low, can't choose who gets Cover'd, only prevents physicals). Siren Edgar is Siren Edgar, just less powerful than I had previously thought. Still fun though. With Gungnir, Siren Edgar can probably run Cover reasonably well anyways.

    Golem Sabin is Golem Sabin; 2nd best character in WoB. For Chakra Sabin, I'm going to have to bite back a lot of my previous remarks. After playing 1.8 and 1.9, the Osmose nerf in 1.8 definitely means the Thamasians care a lot more for the Chakra support. C/C auto-crit (Phantom Celes, Maduin Mog with Punisher) is also another solid use, with a cute defensive synergy with defensive mages. Mind you, this was Terrato Sabin, not Stray: Chakra was awesome enough that I didn't really need it to be stronger, just needed more HP on Sabin for his own survivability.

    Phantom Celes is my new favorite Celes build. Plenty of HP and armor for tanking hits, a strong weapon for great counters, and the ability to get all three of "Physical Damage +", "Counterattack", and "Cover." MP intensive though, so either pair her with Chakra (and frail mages), or sacrifice some HP for Seraph ELs. Slightly low damage (3.9k swipe), but meh, w/e.

    Kirin Cyan is Kirin Cyan; best character in WoB. vig Cyan really, really feels the HP nerf in this hack. Probably because, for the WoR, he and Sabin are highly dependent on stacking HP ELs for their survivability. (Probably why I felt like Terrato Sabin was better for Chakra spam than Stray Sabin). Sabin's got the Royal Jacket, high vigor, and great utility though. Cyan....can't use Hero Ring without hurting his own survivability again. ; _ ; So, my high Alex vig Cyan just kinda didn't perform as well as I had hoped. Still hit hard. More like my Kirin Locke; not terrible, but clearly under-performing. For NHT, almost definitely should've just pumped more vigor and just relied on Image / Reflect / Rerise / Defib support more heavily.

    spd Gau is spd Gau. Hurtmore and Harvester spam; don't think I've bothered with his other stuff in quite some time. (Partly from lack of time, partly b/c why bother?). Harvester is only 300 - 400 in endgame, but at probably double the speed of anyone else. Hurtmore is easily a 6k - 8k at double speed.

    spd Shadow is changing my personal preference about Shadow. I think I like double turning stuff as much as I like tanking a million hits with huge bulk.

    For GP Toss Setzer, if I play him again, it should probably be with a respec. GP Toss just really needs to stack high stamina to do the damage. Otherwise, I could use Starlet for extra Cover support on The Bank Setzer, as raw HP/MP is slightly stupid, esp. with nerfed HP ELs or without an HP/MP booster to boost those stats (esp. MP) to absurd levels. Still, he's great, and he's still got plenty of offensive options (Blackjack on FC, Shoat, sniping Holy/Human weaknesses with knives; even Fixed Dice, with Daryl's Soul, should average to good damage in a longer boss fight).

    vig Mog is vig Mog. Mogoon with Partisan until you grab Punisher, hit stuff with Punisher until you grab Longinus, Mogoon with Longinus, and don't forget magical utility or maybe even Forest Suite.

    mag Strago is mag Strago. Somewhat useless on the FC outside of niche Holy Wind strats or abusing Rods (Mog & Relm are better), becomes solid in the WoR with new Lores, though mostly shines through his utility and mob control. (Sounds like I'd prefer stam Strago for playing a more support-based game, but I think stamina is pointless on Strago, so might as well have stronger attacks for when I do attack). 1.10's proposed X-Dark's damage performed as expected: a better single-target magical attack for Strago to use. Terrato Sabin's Chakra can't quite keep up with its MP cost (84), but it still more than halves the MP cost, so Strago only needs X-Osmose maybe once per fight to keep him going. Dunno how well it performs without Chakra support. Also only really got to test its improved power in a few fights, since most the rest of the time, Strago was doing mob control or sniping a Water or Ice weakness.

    mag Relm is nice. Also not op, like she was in 1.7 or earlier, when double strength Osmose and MP+50% Radiant Gown made her a bottomless pool of MP. (Taken me two runs to confirm this though). That and Nowea's speed change (?? version) definitely means mag Relm is probably preferable to raw damage output, both for Zoneseek's MP and for more magic yielding stronger Osmose. spd Relm is still the better support (and we'll pretend that stam Relm doesn't exist).

    Bodyguard Umaro (Hero Ring) is fun.

    Cover / Counter is definitely a fun new tool. I've mostly appreciated it with Celes, HP/MP Terra (Cover), and Umaro (Cover) though. Probably would've appreciated it more with Locke if I had built him properly and given him a Genji Shield instead of trying for Omega Valiance. Might've also appreciated it with Kirin Cyan had I played him game long or had I been less scared of NHT's brutality on the FC (HP nerfs hurt). (Same reasoning with Edgar; probably should've used Cover side more with mag Edgar once I had Gungnir, but HP nerfs are kinda scary). Didn't get to try it with Mog, Shadow (lol, crazy), Ocean Claw Sabin, or Setzer (Cover).



  20. Defeated Warring Triad. Only Kefka remaining. Everyone's at 30, except for a few at 31.

    Team 1 is Team Chakra: HP Sabin, HP/MP Terra, Phantom Celes, mag Strago. After the fork, they'll fight Asura. Also, again, testing out the in-development Dark for 1.10. (Slightly higher BPow, but also slightly higher MP cost).


    Big elementals, X-Zone, and c/c all thrashed mobs. There were a few encounters I Warped away from; forgot which ones. Either they got the jump and/or I felt like this team couldn't handle them well.

    Guardian, as per usual, died a horrible, horrible death. Morph Terra with Bolt 3, Tsunami Strago, and even Bolt 3 from Celes all put this guy down without much of a fight. Oh, and Dispel to prevent any Reflect shenanigans on my Bolt 3 spam.

    Kaiser's Wallchange decided to be mean and mostly role Holy and Fire. Ice would've been preferred. Otherwise, nothing much to say. Suplex's "never miss Slow" prevents Haste from being an issue. I was mostly fairly safe HP-wise and had a never ending supply of MP.

    For Asura, after some initial fights where she decided to RNG-kill me (N.Cross) and/or I forgot some key pieces of equipment (Chocobo Hide for Water resist), things went smoothly. Morph Terra's Bolt 3 pelted her for 9999, Strago's X-Dark did 5500 - 6000 per Dark, Sabin did his usual, Celes c/c'd, supported, and healed (Terra also healed, obviously).

    Also, I had both Terra and Celes on Cover. There were a few times that both Cover'd Strago at once. Hilarious.


    This team ended up being my A-team. Which means Chakra Sabin is better than I thought. I do have one defense though: this is Terrato Sabin, not stam Sabin. : )

    Terrato Sabin spammed Chakra. Even at only ~50 MP per heal, this is still useful enough to keep the team going, save for one or two times when Strago needed X-Osmose. Also kept Sabin alive, unlike Deschain's NHT play with stam Sabin. Other than Chakra, Mantra actually found a few uses, and then his usual Golem.

    HP/MP Terra. I initially planned to play NHT with MP Terra, but I stopped that because HP was too important. Otoh, I did forgo Maduin completely; elemental weaknesses, low mg.def, and Morph means that Terra barely noticed. Also had her run Cover a few times when not Morphed, just to push her "party support" role a little further. Had I not swapped Gem Box for a Crystal Orb, Terra would've been fine without Chakra support.

    Phantom Celes is my new favorite Celes build. With Alexander and great equipment (looking at you, Cyan), she can take plenty of hits and dish out solid damage in return. C/C means she can run party support while still expecting to see Illumina counterattacks. Chakra support was appreciated and also enabled her to switch over to magical damage for certain fights (Guardian, Kaiser, a few randoms), as well as giving her effectively infinite MP for Illumina and support magics. This build appreciating Chakra is probably my biggest error in evaluating Chakra's usefulness. Otoh, c/c only just now came into existence, so....uh....>_>

    mag Strago, as a glass cannon, feels so much better when X-Dark actually hits like Tempest. Though, just as importantly, Chakra support = free use of X-Zone. : )

    For Sabin, I'm actually very tempted to either run vig Sabin -> respec to Terrato for Chakra spam, or to stick with hyb Sabin set-ups. Chakra spam was nice. Though if I end up running defensive mages, I'll stick with vig Sabin.

    Team 2 is glass cannon team. mag Edgar, mag Relm, spd Gau, vig Cyan. I thought they'd fight Myria (Flurry & Hurtmore), but they fought Isis instead. Oops.


    This team was mostly fine for randoms. Hurtmore, Harvester, Meteor/Flare, and Flurry/Tempest mostly handled stuff, while Edgar handled healing & Battery support. Not as good as Chakra team though; I blame Cyan.

    For Atma, I really need to start considering this guy as an important fight; he kicked my butt this run, as he has done in previous runs as well. Died 5 times to this guy. Eventually resorted to Reflect Ring (and Alexander) strategies just to get through Phase II; Harvester, Relm, and Edgar simply couldn't keep up, while Tempest just wasn't doing the damage to be worth only having Cyan running offense.

    Bolt Dragon, otoh, died pretty easily. Bolt gear and plenty of damage ended him quickly.

    Oops, not Myria, but Isis. >_< I had planned on Hurtmore and Flurry blowing up Myria's low p.def self with huge damage (both should've done 9999). Had fire and wind gear at the ready. Ugh.

    Isis was annoying, though not super dangerous. Charmed Gau an awful lot, though Harvester Gau is non-threatening when Charmed. Other than that, it was a slog of Edgar and Relm healing / supporting while Relm and Cyan chipped off her HP. Tempest gets a nice damage upgrade when she turns her back, but Cyan also ate dirt an awful lot. Ugh.


    This team was definitely my C-Team. Partly because it was built poorly for the bosses (Isis, Atma), though maybe NHT Atma is just too brutal? Iunno. The other reason, however:

    vig Cyan really, really feels the hurt from weakened HP espers. My other HP+60 dudes were fine; Cyan, otoh, dropped an awful lot. I went heavy Alexander, but weak HP ELs means that I'm down 240 / 300 HP. Weakened HP ELs, his usual lack of shield, and avoiding 1.9's Hero Ring b/c of Cover = Cyan dies like Strago. Urg! Part of the reason early on was equipping Cyan poorly: my semi-strict policy of not swapping gear in Kefka's meant he went with Dark Good + Crystal instead of Genji. Still, even after fixing some of those issues (Genji Helm, Muscle Belt), he just didn't perform. Tempest only did 6k damage (Masamune, 80 vigor) and his 1.7k HP just didn't hold up. I really miss my Power Glove + Hero Ring set-up for Cyan.

    mag Edgar is mag Edgar. Utility, healing, and Battery. I...think I did something wrong, as he only had 40 spd and 60 mag for me, and I know I went heavy on the Siren. Nirvana Cure 2 / Defib only did about ~700. I...uhh....did something wrong. Well, he still performed well, just was expecting him to be more powerful. Definitely superior to Unicorn Edgar though. (Except maybe for FC, but I guess that's just a case of front-loading mag Edgar with Unicorn).

    Been a while since I played mag Relm. Feels good. Blow stuff up with big Flares, actually heal a good amount with Osmose (180 with the Crystal Orb), have a good chunk of MP. Having Battery support did keep her from having to Osmose all the time. (Some versions ago, Osmose would've been at double power and Radiant Gown would've had MP+50%, so she really wouldn't have needed Battery support). Just feels good to use this build again after playing spd Relm a lot.

    spd Gau is fun. Great damage dealer, useful healer. Haven't bothered with any other Rage in ages. Even boosted with a Blizzard Orb, Harvester only heals for 400, but Gau does get an awful lot of turns. (Still needed Reflect strats for Atma, unlike my previous non-NHT run). Really wish I had fought Myria.

    Team 3 is a bunch of bulky dudes and a ninja. Kirin Locke, vig Mog, Bank Setzer, and spd Shadow. I thought they'd fight Isis, but they fought Myria instead. Oops.


    This team rolled all over randoms. Inferno and Myria were a bit of a grind though.

    For Inferno, I died a couple of times at first, before hitting on better strats. Kagenui proved very useful for keeping the arms Stopped/Slowed.

    Poison Dragon died, as per usual. Though surprisingly less easily than Bolt, thx to this Shadow and Locke deciding they liked eating dirt. (Also, lack of status resists, herp). Oh well, 8k Longinus jumps wrecked this guy.

    I wanted this team to fight Isis, not Myria. Plenty of back attackers, plenty of ways of killing & reviving the Charmed, bulk. Urg!

    Myria was annoying, though once I got a strat down, like Isis, mostly a grind. Died once, then I switched Locke over to Sage Stone. Had to scramble a lot with Remedies, Holy Water, and Potions, and also used up a few X-Potions and X-Ethers. Also still had a timely save from a Harvester that I rolled rng for.


    Next time I play Kirin Locke, Imma do it rightly and give him Ramuh ELs. Omega will just get traded in the Colosseum for a Mirage Vest. Awful damage, and his low mg.def means he crumples mighty quick. Still, Phoenix ELs and Sage Stone saved my bacon for Myria, so he's not all bad.

    vig Mog is vig Mog.

    The Bank: Setzer performed admirably. Would've been better with proper HP ELs (>_>),'s Setzer. Gave up on stam Setzer: I had been running a heavier HP set-up, which hurt GP Rain's damage, and I was also broke. Could've used him for Cover or resisting statuses, but I just decided to go all-in with The Bank. I could've respec to heavy Starlet for great damage, but I felt like I was better off letting other dudes handle damage while Setzer did his job as a cleric.

    I'm really liking spd Shadow. A lot. Possibly enough to change my preference to actually wanting to use Shadow more often, despite his low HP.


    Unless Kefka pulls a surprise, Nowea, I think you've gotten most of my feedback. There's a few bosses that need to be looked at (Phunbaba especially), and Back Attacks need to be less "rng kill you". Also gonna agree with Deschain that HP ELs have been lowered a bit too much. I'd at least bring them back up to 2/3 strength (+20, +40).

    I'll comment more on general 1.9 thoughts some other time.


  21. 3 hours ago, F-Bomb said:

    In my last playthrough of 1.9.0 I used seibaby's encounter patch v4, and I believe that by the end I was at least 2 or 3 levels lower than my 1.8.6 playthrough. I think I ended up between 28 and 32 for all characters, with EL's from 19 to 23,  I think that this is a good way of lowering levels without messing around with too much else. Also I never had to grind to keep up either. Im not sure if I play faster slower or what not, but  my playthrough was 52-54 hours. Which is a decent game, considering vanilla is usually 32 hours for me.

    IIRC, work is being done to make seibaby's encounter patch fit for mainstream release. IIRC, currently, there are technical issues with it.

    That said, I would definitely appreciate a patch that raises the minimum number of steps taken before an encounter. Hiking to fight the Ice Dragon in NHT got real annoying when every (other) step in town of Narshe was an encounter.


  22. 1 hour ago, Budcakes said:

    Something that might help alleviate this problem somewhat is to provide a pretty clear recommended progression in game via NPC or PC dialogue, so the player has some idea what dungeon they should tackle next.

    All ready provided. Order of progression is Mt. Zozo -> Veldt Cave (also, nearby Terra and Gau) -> Owzer's Mansion -> Phoenix Cave -> everything else -> Cultist's Tower -> Kefka's Tower. The first three of those dungeons definitely feel easier than stuff like Cyan's Soul, Narshe, or Zone Eater's Cave, with Phoenix Cave kinda in the middle of these two sets in terms of difficulty. Outliers here are Ancient Castle and Ebot's Rock, which feel easy despite coming in the "later" set of WoR dungeons.


  23. While better than other parts of the WoB, for the player's current power, the FC mobs aren't as strong as the Zozo and IMF mobs were for the player's current power then. So, a buff to FC mobs isn't necessarily a bad idea.

    Mog's brutal on the FC. Many versions ago, I had a Mog who solo'd Ultros and Chupon with Earth Blues, whereas I normally have trouble with those buggers. Let alone Forest Suite = Win for Atma.

    Blood Sword has only just now found itself useful with C/C, so I don't want to nerf it too much. I'd like to see more results from a properly leveled Locke alongside c/c Terra and c/c Celes before drawing conclusions. Also, if FC mobs are buffed, I'd want to see results from that before addressing anything.