thzfunnymzn

Not sure I like any stat affecting proc rate, as proc rate weapons seem to be designed for various different people who have various different key stats. Magic based hurts vigor builds who rely on these weapons at various points (see: Apocalypse for Terra), stamina-based is just another random thing to tie stamina into that's maybe, only, kinda-sorta, not really that useful, vigor doesn't make aesthetic sense and balances poorly with stuff like Soul Saber or Punisher (for reasons), speed is good enough as is & also doesn't make aesthetic sense, HP & MP are a no.

That said, kudos for contributing, even if I'm shooting down the idea.

Uh, we could at least switch Merton to Melton, since its closer to the correct Meltdown?

Stamina influencing Drain, Gravity, etc, is misinformation. Unfortunately, the Printme is unclear and needs to be fixed.

You have a (Stamina / 128) % chance of dodging a Drain, Gravity, Doom, or status spell. This is global. No status, gravity, drain, etc, actually has any more accuracy than any other, to my knowledge, nor can its accuracy be boosted. It's just a stamina-based chance to evade the attack.

To clarify, I mention "stamina affecting status resistance" because I find that it's much more reliable to equip for tanking these attacks (immunities, earth resist) or to just heal them off rather than to rely on dodging them. Most especially for the debuffs, of which, more than half are either instant-death or remove control from the player or even actively turn your own party against you. The other half, while less bad, is still "hit completely or miss completely", with most character's stamina not rising much beyond a 50% dodge rate, and that only in the latter part of the game.

***

@BTB, I know I'm stubborn as a mule, so to try and be a little more broad-minded: the current Aurabolt would be an acceptable attack on stam Sabin if A) extreme amounts of stamina (110+) are stacked, and B) if the Nirvana Band is equipped. The latter is generally undesirable and seems unpopular for a reason (instead of b/c of difficulty understanding or using), while the latter is only equipped on stam Sabin b/c one wants to boost Aurabolt's damage (which isn't stam Sabin's main asset, nor should it be; Chakra is). So, if stam-based Air Blade is still off the table (I can understand not wanting even more AoE attacks, as there are a little too many strong ones right now), might I request we look into what can be done to make the Nirvana Band a desirable equip for stam Sabin? (Removing it entirely and buffing stam-based damage is the alternative, but aesthetically undesirable, option). Even with only ~90 stamina, Nirvana Aurabolt at least finally starts breaking the 3k mark by endgame. Still not enough without extreme stamina stacking, but hey, Nirvana on Sabin is an aesthetic undesirable situation, so it's still a plus to look into this.

15 minutes ago, SuperHario said:

I agree they’re flavor, but that’s important too (see script complaints).  As BNW stands now, it’s a vast improvement over vanilla gameplay wise, no doubt, but there are still plenty of story tweaks that could be incorporated to better reference real life source material, or make the game feel more rewarding when you see the reasoning behind why an item is earned for a certain event and maybe learn something in the process.

Even though I disagree with your proposal, +1

There is definitely room to change terminology so as to save on space. Looking in FF3usME (I've been lazy about actually looking at this stuff lately), there's also definitely some blank spaces in the programming (that aren't even being used as place markers of sorts), so that's not an issue either. So, iow, it is feasible to fit it in there. Issue is do we want to, where does it go, what's the changes to the Colosseum trading sequences (that's a nightmare).

Nice to see we're in agreement on 3 of the Force stuff.

I'll propose a concern that I don't want Force Robe to come too quickly after the Light Robe, lest the Light Robe become outdated immediately after its bought. So...not on the Wind dragon, at least. Might also consider giving Light Robe an elemental resistance, since I suspect it's undervalued?

Another concern is that both Force Armor and Force Robe looks odd for Terra, Celes, and Mog. Since, currently, they're the exact same armor, just with different equips. Also, Force Robe is redundant on Strago and Gogo. I guess we could have Robe be a Te / Ce / Sa / Mo equip, while Armor is Ed / Cy / Se equip (3 is odd, but oh well). Does mean, in Kefka's, there might be some Force juggling you can no longer do, which I guess is fine.

Only last concern is whether Force Robe ought to have stam+ (this is being developed b/c of stam Sabin, after all), and if so, what are the values of stam+ and mag+ on it?

Shax, you are in good company. Despite being a "veteran" with Shadow being a "veteran" character, I still dislike the guy. He's too frail and there's no build variety for me to explore. These aren't bad aspects of his design, and I respect his power, but I dislike the guy. Don't like him story-wise either.

Oh, and yeah, I could care less for basing a build around Interceptor to.

6 minutes ago, Shax said:

People that enjoy Shadow aren't fucked because Relm doesn't need Intercepter.  It's an Easter egg bonus that kinda makes up for missing an entire character and simply makes a strong character even stronger. Not to mention the potential "teleporting dog" issues that could arise from any solution that allows both characters to have the dog at the same time. I mean if you really like both characters it certainly lets you have your cake and eat it too, but I personally don't see the need.

I think the problem is tying "Relm with Interceptor" into the core definition of who stam Relm is. If Interceptor is to remain as an Easter Egg, then I want to see Interceptor revert back to doing magic-based damage when guarding Relm while we look for a proper definition of who stam Relm is and what her role on the team is.

2 hours ago, Mr. Ultima said:

The Force Robe sounds nice, but your cutting off more physical based characters from having magic defense to give magic users even more magic defense. Instead of getting 4 Force Armor you should instead find 2 Force Armor and 2 Force Robes, maybe have them trade for each other in the colosseum.

Thanks.

Force Armor and Force Robe both share Terra, Celes, and Mog as people who can equip these armors. So, that'd be unchanged. Strago and Gogo gaining Force Robe, yes, is redundant with their Hides.

If its possible programming wise, having both with some Colosseum trades is interesting. 2 of both might be a little much, I'd rather see 2-3 total

Mana Battery can be boosted by Nirvana. Chakra cannot. Mana Battery ought to be significantly stronger than Chakra, but limited to only one person at a time. The amount of people who need MP support, however, is a concern. It's really only Relm, X-Locke, X-Mog, and Rerise Shadow who truly appreciate the help. Terra & Celes do prior to the Gem / Soul Box as well, but then they get it, and whelp, who cares. Also, no one loves X-Mog, so it's really only X-Locke, Relm, and Rerise Shadow, one of who is niche and the other who still technically has Osmose. (and, if its only one or two, just dedicate your Ether supply to them).

***

To side-step into something else about Sabin, I've seen discussion recently regarding Sabin's frailty, slow speed as a healer, and endgame armors. So, quick points b/c I can't talk much right now:

Mirage Vest

Hard to obtain, less popular in use b/c its not clearly better than Dark Gear. Me and Vaylen discussed this a week ago. How about one of either A) one Mirage Vest can be obtained outside of the Colosseum, or B) Mirage Vest gets a vigor+ (+5 or +7), making it more desirable? It's got Mg.Eva+20, Spd+7, and auto-haste to make it desirable for a healer build, it's just so hard to obtain.

Light Robe

Sabin's got m.def armor, but it's only for the early WoR, and maybe not quite enough for the poor guy. Aesthetically, there ought to be a Force Robe of sorts, but we've got a Force Armor instead.

One proposition here is for the Light Robe to provide one elemental resistance.

The other proposition here is for the Force Armor to be the Force Robe instead. This hurts Edgar, Setzer, and Cyan, so something would have to be done for them to re-gain a magical armor. Thankfully, having both Diamond and Crystal Mail is redundant, so one of those can be re-designed into a mini magical armor of sorts. This gives Sabin a +70 mg.def, Resist Fire/Ice/bolt robe that has poor p.def and p.eva, favoring the back row, where stam Sabin wants to be. Slap a +5 or +7 stamina on it, and stam Sabin's got an armor that vig Sabin doesn't care for.

Royal Jacket

It'd be nice if Edgar had some reason for wanting to equip the Royal Jacket, especially if Sabin suddenly has other endgame armors he cares for equipping.

Helmet

Uh, probably nothing. stam Sabin's got Red Cap and Skull Cap, that's probably decent enough. It's a shame that vig Sabin's ultimate is the Tiger Mask, but that's not the current discussion, and as vig Sabin is rather awesome, let's drop this.

Went into Mt. Zozo with spd Gau, stam Edgar, mag Relm, stam Setzer. Levels 24, 23, 21, 21 respectively.

Crushed randoms with status and AoE. Ran from Colossus though.

Wind Dragon was a slow fight, though I still won it comfortably in my first try. Gau raged Dragon, Relm & Setzer danced between supporting with heal / Rerise and attacking with Flare / GP Rain (and needed lots of MP support). Edgar pretended to be mag Edgar, lul.

I....summoned Fenrir. Saved Gau & Relm the first few times, but then Edgar's Image never dissipated, so he was never able to Cover Gau or Relm. Had Palidor equipped, so no Golem summon. Oops? Still won, but it meant that Edgar's main use never came into play. Also, magic attacks chew through Edgar's HP rather quickly. Tbf, he didn't die, unlike everyone else.

Relm died in one hit to Wind Claw counters. Should've gone and gained more levels with her. Flare isn't as strong as I remember; about same power as GP Toss. I presume I've been doing something wrong in my recent games for Flare to feel so weak. Either that or its the low level really weighing her down. Also forgot to learn RegenX before the fight. Oops. She spent a decent deal of time healing with Osmose, though only for 96 MP a pop.

Setzer healed, threw money (ouch, my wallet!), spammed RegenX, and occasionally used Rerise and Bio. Had to be supported with a Mana Battery. Useful, though I wish I had more GP so I didn't feel so bad using GP Toss.

Gau clocked Wind Dragon upside the head for 4400 a pop with his Rage, much more than Relm's & Setzer's 2800. Also moved much faster than them, so despite the random Glares, he was definitely my dps here. (Snow Muffler and a higher level helps a lot though). Seriously, Bone Club is absurd once its obtained. Hurtmore and Umaro are easily my strongest attacks right now, to a little bit of a ridiculous degree. (But Gau balance is another topic of discussion entirely, and we're all ready busy with stamina discussion over in the other topic).

***

Next up is clearing Cyan's Soul. Going to actually grind up in the FT first for ELs and Levels. I am so not doing Cyan's Soul at levels in the low 20's. Afterwards, I'm esper resetting Edgar (to magic), Sabin (to Terrato), Cyan (vig + Alex), and Celes (Phantom + Alex).

19 minutes ago, Think0028 said:

It's not impossible, but the more complex the logic the harder it'll be to implement. This is by far the easiest way to handle multiple elements that isn't picking most-resistant, since it only uses addition/subtraction/dividing by 2. The instant we start dividing by other numbers, things get messy.

What about just having elementals use the same damage multiplier formula that everything else uses? Jump, Berserk, Morph, and all that?

3 hours ago, Nowea said:

Something that could be touched on regarding Sabin. Something that is indirectly responsible for Stam Sabin basically falling off... The access to healing that a player gets grows faster than the need for it does. Even with 0 EL investment and no Mag boosting gear a level 25 character can toss around low 4-digit AoE Cure3s. It doesn't matter how high spell power Mantra is, it can't compete with that under the design of not hitting Sabin. Similarly, Harvester/Sun Bath are able to nearly entirely heal the entire party at literally no cost. This makes it so that investing in stamina for the healing side of things is fairly pointless because you end up playing in a world where everyone is getting topped off by almost anything you toss out.

Combine this with the plethora of MP regen sources the player gets via items alone (a good amount of elixirs and ethers along with purchasable tinctures) makes Mantra only really viable if you build the entire party around Sabin just standing there and spamming Mantra. In addition, it's more than easy enough to get enough MP via +50% MP relics, MP ELs, cost reduction, or simply being self sufficient later on to the point where a player can easily just toss out the biggest stuff (short of X-Magic Locke) constantly...

It's less that Mantra/Chakra are weak and more that all the other options work at least as well without dedicating a character to mostly only be able to use those.

RegenX is not worth building a character stam for because all the characters that get RegenX also get Cure3, which is twice the power (when cast AoE). Harvester/Sun Bath are free and with just stam gear (and Blizz orb) and no ELs a level 25 Gau will heal for around 475 HP (about 70% of the HP of a character without HP ELs or boosting gear) with Harvester, double that for Sun Bath. These are being done at Super Gau Speed as well, so he's not unlikely to (potentially) get 2 of these off between enemy attacks. And that's not even accounting for Harvester's use as AoE Remedy.

The only stats that can matter enough for EL investment for healing is +MP (just so you don't run out at the wrong time) or +Speed (Faster turn = faster recovery). I think this may be the heart of the issue. Why build someone for healing? Stam Sabin is pretty much for healing as his offensive capabilities aren't that great and his ability to take hits 'and' cover/counter isn't really that good compared to your bulkier characters.

This. This so much. I'm so glad that someone else sees this issue.

Sounds like the solution is a "global" nerf to healing, revival, item healing, and MP restoration capabilities?

So, tl;dr, Mantra needs buffs and/or nerfs to other support characters, Chakra needs more viable uses, both Mantra and Chakra could be learned earlier, Fire Dance/Air Blade as stamina-based, possibly some better equipment for Sabin, most certainly more actually good universal uses for stamina (status reduction?), and possibly reminding people to not get too crazy with building stamina on Sabin.

The biggest problem is that Ultima is, well, the ultimate black magic. Anime / jRPG logic dictates that this is given to the main character as their endgame "Super Saiyan" mode. So, it goes to Terra. Flipside of this argument is that a niche "ultimate" magic does not fit on the main character.

Second problem is that ??? is self-harming, and Merton is party-harming. A natural progression of sort that Terra lacks, albeit, a progression kinda shoved into a back corner. (Since I suspect most people using Merton are also snagging lots of Flameguards, or at least, Fire immunities).

On an unrelated note, I'll comment that "has potential to heal the party and damage the enemy on the same move" seems like a quirky magic more fitting for Strago or Mog. Especially Strago, with his slow speed. It kinda comes out of the blue with Celes, especially since ??? has no such functionality, and honestly, doesn't really hurt Celes too much. (Mind you, Flameguard x4 with Merton use is actually quite nice, so it's not like its bad on Celes. Just something somewhat different from how she's played throughout the rest of the game, requires some specfic set-up and party composition, and not really that useful until Soul Box is obtained b/c 80 MP).

So, I got lost in all the hoop-la. Nothing can change with the implementation because of FFVI programming, did I hear right?

It's late at night, but I know I won't fall asleep without responding to a balance discussion of BNW, so I'll be brief.

It's far from my worst, but my brief is still other people's dissertations.

Sorry for double post.

'Nother idea is to have weaknesses, resists, and nulls directly affect the damage multiplier in the damage formula. So, weakness is +2 multiplier, resist is -1, and null is -2. (Absorb doesn't fit here and we still need logic for having each element affect the damage multiplier). Now, all other damage multipliers (Morph, Jump, Berserk, Auto-Crit, Throw, Back Attack) also effect elemental damage.

...

I'll shut up now.

Another idea is to introduce:

Absorb + Resist = Null

Absorb + Neutral = Resist

Absorb + Weak = Neutral

More enemies can be hit by multi-elementals now. Otoh, elemental shields work less often. Most importantly is that Merton is only resisted by Flameguards without also equipping Wind resistance, making Merton even more very difficult to use with an even more questionable reward (good luck getting the team healed while you use Merton).

A patch like this might require re-thinking elemental resists on gear, possibly re-evaluating what magics have what elements (looking at you, Merton).

Thing is, the main randoms where you'd want to be using Merton, those in Kefka's, still resist Merton while having weaknesses to Ice and Bolt. It mostly gets benefits earlier in the WoR, where its MP cost and your own equipment still make it difficult to use (if you have it).

Also makes it harder to defend against enemy Merton, like those Hell Angel randoms in Kefka's.

Mog's really the only winner here. Rondo and Jazz work more often in important areas.

I still like the concept.

Also, Merton's a whole 'nother story from making multi-elemental attacks more useful.

"Have to have Flameguards" was hyperbole. It is technically still usable. But Merton is losing more than its gaining, since team set-up becomes even stricter while who it gains damage against isn't the greatest list on the planet. Neverminding that Flameguard x4 is one of the, if not the, best way to use Merton anyways.

Also, Merton hurts a lot more than Shock.

Not saying I dislike the patch. I was excited at first too. I'm just uncertain of the benefits after looking over everything.

Ah, forgot that they were null instead of absorb. Oops. >_<

Still no new weaknesses, they just act like neutral elemental attacks on certain phases, though I guess they won't trigger counterattacks.

Enemies still seem like the big winner here.

So, giving it some thought, the benefits:

• Mog's Snowman Jazz will at least do neutral damage to all those Ice weak enemies that null Earth or Wind. (Atma, Behemoth, Brontasaurs, Tyranos, Land Worms, Chickenlip)
• Mog's Surge (Rondo mostly, but Jazz as well) will now do neutral damage to mechanical foes instead of being nulled
• Terra's Storm should never be nulled, except by Behemoths and Flans. Mind you, Hot Wheels and Low Riders are the only ones who will take neutral damage.
• Tritoch summon can work more often, though there's no new boss weaknesses to take advantage of.
• Celes' Merton can hurt more enemies, though it is still nulled by Ninjas, Flans, Hot Wheels, and Fidor. The enemies it now does neutral damage to are Mammoths, Low Riders, Mantodeas, Bears, Dragonflies, and Rabbits.
• Raze shouldn't be nulled except by Flans. It now does neutral damage to Tapdancers, Ninjas, Rain Men, Mechanix,  and Lvl.3 Mage.
• Gau's "Rain" and "Volt" attacks are less likely to be nulled. Didn't evaluate when or where.

Wherever I'm saying "should never be nulled," mind you, it can still be absorbed. Who absorbs it hasn't changed at all.

Is that it for double and triple elemental attacks? (Seems like Mog, at least, used to have more).

On the other hand, equipment that nulls elements (Muffler, Minerva, Jacket, Rage Belt, Blizzard Orb) now may simply resist while equipment that resists elements (Force, Hides, Gold, Diamond, Crystal, Tiger, Gaia) may now do nothing. Important abilities to watch out for are Storm, Merton, Raze, Sand Storm, Rain (Acid, Flash, Firestorm), Volts (Giga, Mega), Virite, Blizzard, and Surge.

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Seems like the real winner here is the enemy instead of the player. Gear that merely resists - like all of the Hides, the higher tier heavy armors, and the Force Armor - now does nothing against Storm, Merton, Flash Rain, Giga Volt, Virite, and Blizzard. The null gears at least still provide resistances against those moves.

Also, Merton now has to have 4x Flameguards in order to be usable. Your precious null gear (Jacket, Muffler, Minerva) now merely resists.

The only player character that seems to win at all is Mog.

So, no new weaknesses, and absorbs still happen, but stuff like Merton, Raze, Storm, and Tritoch are less likely to be nulled or resisted.

13 hours ago, SuperHario said:

RE Hidon:

Since Hidon is no longer undead, the fire and holy weaknesses don’t really fit thematically.  Nor does a water weakness seem appropriate since we have to assume Hidon is amphibious considering it lived in a submerged Ebots Rock.  Thus for Strago to be most effective, a poison or ice weakness would work, but maybe Hidon has inherent Shell?  (It does sorta look like Hidon is equipped with some sort of exoskeleton.)  Then poison attacks do essentially normal damage to stay on par with defense ignoring spells (cough, Relm, cough), which juxtaposes nicely with Hidon using powerful defense ignoring attacks.

I could see Poison weakness without low mg.def. Probably necessary to prevent X-Dark from being too strong. Shell seems unnecessary. Raze and X-Dark should easily overpower Flare with just a Poison weakness. X-Dark may very well break the damage cap. Granted, Relm can very well use the Punisher rod to also do strong damage (and Mog can use X-Bio), but that's probably a bit more niche than Strago just flinging a strong magical attack.

OK, so, uh, add Reflect to the list of strategies for handling Atma. >_> Probably better than Rerise spam anyways. Though you're still using status immune relics. : p