hmsong

SD3 Spell Balance patch

173 posts in this topic

Nah, I've done both.
Crits give only +25% atk before defense (which can still mean some crits deal x4 regular damage later)
AND all melee damage is halved after defense.

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I see.  Thank you for the information.  I don't know if you'll ever update the bug fix patch, but if you do, I'd really appreciate it if you can put in the document something like, "the power of all regular attacks (both you and monsters) is halved."  Personally, I dislike the decreasing the melee power to that magnitude, since that makes each battles (esp before the 1st class change) take forever.  But you must have your reasons for doing that.

Btw, is there a way to decrease Kevin's werewolf bonus?  I heard vanilla is 1/7 power boost, but I want to decrease its power boost further (1/10?).

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17 minutes ago, hmsong said:

Personally, I dislike the decreasing the melee power to that magnitude, since that makes each battles (esp before the 1st class change) take forever.  But you must have your reasons for doing that.

Because melee damage is stupid OP, especially with "fixed" crits.
240 attack in endgame vs 220 defense?

20 damage normal.
80 damage crit (with the nerfed "25%" increase)
140 damage L1 tech
380 damage L3 tech

with power up (33% increase version):
100 damage normal
180 damage crit
260 damage L1 tech
580 damage L3 tech

with power up AND saber vs weakness:
260 damage normal
380 damage crit
500 damage L1 tech
580 damage L3 tech (L2/3 techs in vanilla have no logic for elements)

PER HIT, that was Hawk btw.

18 minutes ago, hmsong said:

Btw, is there a way to decrease Kevin's werewolf bonus?  I heard vanilla is 1/7 power boost, but I want to decrease its power boost further (1/10?).

There probably is. I have no documentation on where it happens in vanilla.
But with what you should've learned about logs recently you should be able to find it.

Put a write breakpoint on Kevin's attack power value, activate the CPU logging and then have him transform until the breakpoint snaps.
I recall that it was in the compressed section so prepare to sift through a couple thousand lines.

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With the way physical damage worked in the original you never would want to put Angela in your party. The physical damage was just stupid. The decrease makes sense, hell even Duran in the original I would say wouod be better off by using Level 1 techs when using a saber for weakness. Level 2/3 techs served no purpose when you had such a dumb attack power per hit with power up + saber, might as well always stick with your Level 1 techs.

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This becomes especially true when you consider that L3 techs are twice as expensive but with saber get even with L1 techs at best and most bosses and several mobs answer L3 techs or spells with extra attacks of their own.

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2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

Put a write breakpoint on Kevin's attack power value, activate the CPU logging and then have him transform until the breakpoint snaps.

I recall that it was in the compressed section so prepare to sift through a couple thousand lines.

Okay, what is the address on Kevin's attack power value?  I don't think you're referring to the "level stat limit".

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

This becomes especially true when you consider that L3 techs are twice as expensive but with saber get even with L1 techs at best and most bosses and several mobs answer L3 techs or spells with extra attacks of their own.

That's true.  Okay, then is there a way to make Lv1 tech worse?  I feel like Lv1 tech is the real problem here.  For example, is there a way to make the Lv1 bar be "spent", whether you hit the enemy or not?  It doesn't seem like you used that idea for Sin of Mana, so you may want to make that for Sin of Mana 2.0.

 

1 hour ago, smileless said:

With the way physical damage worked in the original you never would want to put Angela in your party. The physical damage was just stupid. The decrease makes sense, hell even Duran in the original I would say wouod be better off by using Level 1 techs when using a saber for weakness. Level 2/3 techs served no purpose when you had such a dumb attack power per hit with power up + saber, might as well always stick with your Level 1 techs.

Well, I guess that's true.  But praetarius5018's bug patch made Power Up weaker (I can't test it, since I can't compare it to the vanilla value, but I believe him).  And my Item Shop patch made it so Drake's Scale is no longer available in the black market (although magic seed being available may technically mean otherwise).

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4 hours ago, hmsong said:

Okay, what is the address on Kevin's attack power value?  I don't think you're referring to the "level stat limit".

Correct, I'm referring to the actual ingame value.

You'll have to search for it in RAM since hero data can actually move around.

4 hours ago, hmsong said:

That's true.  Okay, then is there a way to make Lv1 tech worse?  I feel like Lv1 tech is the real problem here.  For example, is there a way to make the Lv1 bar be "spent", whether you hit the enemy or not?  It doesn't seem like you used that idea for Sin of Mana, so you may want to make that for Sin of Mana 2.0.

That would only make the game more frustrating.

 

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9 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

Correct, I'm referring to the actual ingame value.

You'll have to search for it in RAM since hero data can actually move around.

Hmm.  How do I search for the attack power value?  I can search for things like experience and gold, since there's a specific number that I can search for, but for the attack value, I don't know how.

9 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

That would only make the game more frustrating.

Well, if Lv1 techs are weakened by being able to miss, then I think it'd be worth it.

The issue I have with weakening all melee attack isn't because of the end-game -- that makes perfect sense to weaken the melee.  It's the beginning 1/3 of the game (before 1st class change).  The grind takes forever, because regular enemies take forever to kill.  And the bosses are even worse.  I couldn't even beat Full Metal Hugger at Lv6 (that's overleveled in that point of the game, since the enemies only give 3~4 exp).  I had to hack and give myself infinite money to buy 9 chocolates and candies and puipui grass, and even then, I only barely beat it (I only had 2 characters -Duran and Angela).

 

Btw, for vanilla, could you please tell me the levels of all bosses up to Gorva?  I don't see any documents anywhere in the internet about their levels.  Unlike the normal monsters, the game doesn't display the levels of the bosses.  Specifically:

  • Full Metal Hugger
  • Machine Golem
  • Jewel Eater
  • Tzenker
  • Genova
  • Bill & Ben
  • Gorva

I'm trying to create a patch that edits the starting stats for everyone (and growth limit), but since it messes with the boss stats, I want to make sure that things aren't too easy/hard.  If I at least know their level (and therefore their upper stat limit for that particular level), then I can work out the difficulties.

Edited by hmsong

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5 hours ago, hmsong said:

Hmm.  How do I search for the attack power value?  I can search for things like experience and gold, since there's a specific number that I can search for, but for the attack value, I don't know how.

On 6/6/2020 at 4:40 PM, hmsong said:

Seiken Densetsu 3 (J)[Eng][Hack]_00000.png

The picture offers a different opinion.

5 hours ago, hmsong said:

The issue I have with weakening all melee attack isn't because of the end-game -- that makes perfect sense to weaken the melee.  It's the beginning 1/3 of the game (before 1st class change).  The grind takes forever, because regular enemies take forever to kill.  And the bosses are even worse.  I couldn't even beat Full Metal Hugger at Lv6 (that's overleveled in that point of the game, since the enemies only give 3~4 exp).  I had to hack and give myself infinite money to buy 9 chocolates and candies and puipui grass, and even then, I only barely beat it (I only had 2 characters -Duran and Angela).

I got 2 reviews on the bugfix patch and that is one of the few things they didn't complain about, how come?

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Wait, that's what you meant by attack value?  I thought the attack value you spoke of was [strength stat + weapon stat + RNG variation + probably some other stuff].  I assumed Kevin's attacks in werewolf form is calculated that way, except adding additional 1/7 attack value.

As for the bug patch, I'm simply stating what I felt, just like how those people said their pieces in the review.  I could leave a review too, but I felt it would be more proper for me to say things here, since this would allow conversation.  Actually, I thought the melee half power was an unintended error of some kind.  And now, I know it wasn't unintended, and more importantly, I also now know the reason you made it that way.  Just because I disliked some parts of what you did doesn't mean I disliked the entire patch.  I have nothing but gratitude towards you for creating the bug patch.  And for helping me so much throughout last few months in creating my own patches.  So once again, thank you.

Also, could you please tell me the levels of the bosses that I previously mentioned?  I'd really appreciate it.

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18 hours ago, hmsong said:

Okay, then is there a way to make Lv1 tech worse?  I feel like Lv1 tech is the real problem here.  For example, is there a way to make the Lv1 bar be "spent", whether you hit the enemy or not?  It doesn't seem like you used that idea for Sin of Mana, so you may want to make that for Sin of Mana 2.0.

I think this is a terrible idea now that the evade stat actually works. If the tech bar is drained because of player not targeting anything, that's so-so but can be understood, but if the tech bar is drained because RNG decides to mess up the player due to evade stat kicking in, that's just frustrating, cheap and something the players have no control over.

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2 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

I think this is a terrible idea now that the evade stat actually works. If the tech bar is drained because of player not targeting anything, that's so-so but can be understood, but if the tech bar is drained because RNG decides to mess up the player due to evade stat kicking in, that's just frustrating, cheap and something the players have no control over.

Well, the point is to make Lv2/3 tech better than Lv1 tech.  In this case, Lv1 tech is too powerful, so making it worse would be a good idea, at least in my humble opinion.  In any case, I'm already aware this won't happen, since praetarius5018 rejected the idea, and I lack the ability to make this.

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4 minutes ago, hmsong said:

Well, the point is to make Lv2/3 tech better than Lv1 tech.  In this case, Lv1 tech is too powerful, so making it worse would be a good idea, at least in my humble opinion.

It's not that level 1 techs themselves are powerful, but the way they stack with the bonuses is what makes them so strong. If they aren't affected by Sabers, Power Up and critical hits, their damage can't get out of hand. I'm not saying level 1 techs shouldn't get any bonuses, just set the bonuses so that they won't stack.

 

7 minutes ago, hmsong said:

praetarius5018 rejected the idea, and I lack the ability to make this.

Honestly, have you considered crediting praetarius5018 as the co-author of your hack? It feels like over 75% of the features implemented in your hack have been directly told to you by him.

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32 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

Honestly, have you considered crediting praetarius5018 as the co-author of your hack? It feels like over 75% of the features implemented in your hack have been directly told to you by him.

I did that.  I specifically credited praetarius5018 for his works (and obtained his permission to use them for my patch, after my first blunder).  It's right in the document.  And I specifically said in the document that praetarius5018 helped me to create the patches.

And where are you getting 75%?  I only released 3 hacks.  And one of them is an extension of another.  And while praetarius5018 told me the addresses of where things are (and the values), he didn't tell me what to put for my patches (the things he did, I specifically credited him as his sole work).

But if he wants me to credit him for Energy Ball and Item Shop, then I will do so.  He definitely helped me on those, directly or indirectly.  I don't have any problem with that.

Edited by hmsong

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8 hours ago, hmsong said:

Also, could you please tell me the levels of the bosses that I previously mentioned?  I'd really appreciate it.

I don't know the exact levels but bosses are either the same level as the mobs in their dungeon or at most 1 level higher.
So that range should be around L4 to 12.

Lv1 tech:
Any specific edit there would be a mess.
You have the x1.5 multiplier which imo should stay because that is the point of the Lv1 tech.
Then you have the power up buff, kinda needed to make regular attacks not suck.
Saber element? if I remember right it uses the same function as spell element so changing that would also nerf spell casting.
You could remove/nerf the day bonus but that affects spell damage as well.

Your best bet would probably be moving the defense subtraction to the start when (power up modified) attack is loaded but that changes basically the whole game.

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7 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I don't know the exact levels but bosses are either the same level as the mobs in their dungeon or at most 1 level higher.
So that range should be around L4 to 12.

Thanks.  I figured that was the case.  I just wanted to know the specifics, since the little details are the ones that affect the difficulties.  Oh well.

 

Yeah, I agree that Lv1 tech should be x1.5.  And messing with the stacking would probably require heavy endeavor that I'm unlikely able to do (not that I wanted to do that in the first place).  And indeed, the defense re-calculation would do some things, but as you said, that would change the whole game, with who-knows what kind of unwanted side effects there are.

I was watching the review of the new Trials of Mana for Switch/PS4.  They mentioned that in that game, the techs will be used up the moment you use it, not when it hits an opponent.  One guy mentioned that it would have been a positive change if that were applied in the original game, since Lv1 tech was so powerful in that game.  I thought about it, and having a "risk of missing it" would make it less powerful without reducing its powers or something (and force players to think more carefully before unleashing that -- vanilla makes it so that people can spam it the moment they get them, since there's no risk of any kind).  I just thought it'd be a neat idea, that's all.

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I don't think this would be an improvement.
Considering the lack of mobility in vanilla it would be hard to get out of range.
And the game has some issues with registering hits sometimes especially at the outer parts of your attack hitbox. There's a whole range where it first thinks the hit would succeed and then at the end doesn't.

I mean with those cases it would be more consistent if the TP is used up the moment you press the tech button but... still feels like stealing.

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8 hours ago, hmsong said:

I was watching the review of the new Trials of Mana for Switch/PS4.  They mentioned that in that game, the techs will be used up the moment you use it, not when it hits an opponent.  One guy mentioned that it would have been a positive change if that were applied in the original game, since Lv1 tech was so powerful in that game.  I thought about it, and having a "risk of missing it" would make it less powerful without reducing its powers or something (and force players to think more carefully before unleashing that -- vanilla makes it so that people can spam it the moment they get them, since there's no risk of any kind).  I just thought it'd be a neat idea, that's all.

Techs are completely different in the Trials of Mana Remake, though. They take several battles to build up (sort of like limit breaks in the FF series), and when you use them, level 1 techs are just like level 2-4 techs in the way that they launch a special attack that always hits the enemy or enemies.

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1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

I mean with those cases it would be more consistent if the TP is used up the moment you press the tech button but... still feels like stealing.

Yeah, that's it.  That's EXACTLY what I want.  I can see why some people would feel that it's stealing, but that means it will discourage people to use Lv1 tech -- it may be powerful (esp with saber/buff), but unlike Lv2/3 tech, you may actually miss, and it'll all be player's fault (not being in range of your enemy, not raising AGI stat, etc).  Computers don't press the tech button, so they may be immune to "TP being used up" part (I'm okay with either case though).

I understand that you don't want to apply this to Sin of Mana (SoM has its own ways to power down Lv1 tech).  But would you be willing to create this and release it on RHDN?

7 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

Techs are completely different in the Trials of Mana Remake, though. They take several battles to build up (sort of like limit breaks in the FF series), and when you use them, level 1 techs are just like level 2-4 techs in the way that they launch a special attack that always hits the enemy or enemies.

Huh?  I thought you can miss (or rather, you can use it when nobody is around, and it'll be used up).  At least, I think that's what one of the reviews said.  Or maybe I misheard something?  Oh well.

Edited by hmsong

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11 minutes ago, hmsong said:

Yeah, that's it.  That's EXACTLY what I want.  I can see why some people would feel that it's stealing, but that means it will discourage people to use Lv1 tech -- it may be powerful (esp with saber/buff), but unlike Lv2/3 tech, you may actually miss, and it'll all be player's fault (not being in range of your enemy, not raising AGI stat, etc).  Computers don't press the tech button, so they may be immune to "TP being used up" part (I'm okay with either case though).

As I said, I think this is just a lousy idea. If the game's hitbox mechanics or evade RNG messes you over, you lose the tech even though you have no control over it. This makes the game more frustrating, not better. It's not like Sabers and buffs/debuffs are available until the first class change (especially if you nerf Byzel items to be more expensive or less available). So before that, this kind of level 1 tech mechanics just reinforce the playstyle of spamming the attack button and never using techs, since without the stack multipliers, level 1 techs aren't that much better than normal attacks, and the risk of them backfiring and causing you to lose the tech completely just encourages you to attack with physical attack spam instead. I'd take the implementation of all physical attacks doing half damage over this kind of mechanic any day.

14 minutes ago, hmsong said:

Huh?  I thought you can miss (or rather, you can use it when nobody is around, and it'll be used up).  At least, I think that's what one of the reviews said.  Or maybe I misheard something?  Oh well.

I just tried, and if there are no enemies on the screen, Trials of Mana doesn't even let you use techs. When there's an enemy on the screen and you use a level 1 tech, the game automatically moves you closer to the target and makes you always hit.

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28 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

As I said, I think this is just a lousy idea. If the game's hitbox mechanics or evade RNG messes you over, you lose the tech even though you have no control over it. This makes the game more frustrating, not better. It's not like Sabers and buffs/debuffs are available until the first class change (especially if you nerf Byzel items to be more expensive or less available). So before that, this kind of level 1 tech mechanics just reinforce the playstyle of spamming the attack button and never using techs, since without the stack multipliers, level 1 techs aren't that much better than normal attacks, and the risk of them backfiring and causing you to lose the tech completely just encourages you to attack with physical attack spam instead. I'd take the implementation of all physical attacks doing half damage over this kind of mechanic any day.

I see.  Well, if that option is at least available, then you can simply choose not to implement that.  In my case, I'd like to implement that.  I very much would like that.

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Uh, sure, that logic is somewhere in the compressed region, so have fun with that >.>
I for my part am happy I'm done with that area.

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On 8.6.2020 at 3:40 AM, hmsong said:

The issue I have with weakening all melee attack isn't because of the end-game -- that makes perfect sense to weaken the melee.  It's the beginning 1/3 of the game (before 1st class change).  The grind takes forever, because regular enemies take forever to kill.  And the bosses are even worse.  I couldn't even beat Full Metal Hugger at Lv6 (that's overleveled in that point of the game, since the enemies only give 3~4 exp).  I had to hack and give myself infinite money to buy 9 chocolates and candies and puipui grass, and even then, I only barely beat it (I only had 2 characters -Duran and Angela).

I loaded up some of my old teams to try Praetarius5018's bugfix patch, and I don't know what you are talking about with Full Metal Hugger. Okay, I was on level 6 too, but I never had to cheat to beat him.

First group: Duran, Lise, Carlie. I spent 7 Round Drops and 2 Puipui Grasses. Nothing too hard, just took me longer than usual. When I was starting to run out of Round Drops, I was thinking of simply not healing Carlie, since she wasn't doing much in the battle.

Second group: Kevin and Duran. For challenge, I had Kevin on his human form. I spent 6 Round Drops and 2 Puipui Grasses before winning.

My conclusion: FMH definitely isn't impossible, let alone something that requires cheating or even chocolates to win.

Slightly off-topic, but why were you using Duran and Angela? Since you didn't have Carlie on that battle, it means she's not your third character, which means your third character was Kevin, Hawk or Lise. Why didn't you have them as your second character, since Angela is practically useless against FMH? In terms of mechanics, Duran and Angela don't even have much synergy in the vanilla game.

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@praetarius5018

Thanks for everything.  You've been a such huge help.  If I have any suggestions for 2.0, I'll post it on that board.

 

10 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

Slightly off-topic, but why were you using Duran and Angela? Since you didn't have Carlie on that battle, it means she's not your third character, which means your third character was Kevin, Hawk or Lise. Why didn't you have them as your second character, since Angela is practically useless against FMH? In terms of mechanics, Duran and Angela don't even have much synergy in the vanilla game.

The reason I had Duran and Angela was because they both had direct relations to the main story.  And as you said, if I wanted for pragmatic purpose, then sure, I could have made it so that my 3rd char would be 2nd to join (therefore making the FMH fight easier).  But I wanted to test it with the "typical" setting (Duran+Angela, Hawk+Carlie, Hawk+Lise), for people who's not familiar with this game.

Btw, the typical level for FMH fight is Lv5 (I just grinded like hell to make the fight easier).  That means, you'd either not-level up STR or VIT for FMH fight (assuming you leveled up those two in the first 3 levels).  Well, if I wanted to make the fight easier specifically for FMH fight, then I'd level up SPI instead of VIT, since all of FMH attacks are SPI attacks.  But I don't "waste" my point on that stat, since VIT or INT is more important for all other bosses and monsters, at least in the beginning.

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SPI wouldn't help much, that is 4 damage less taken per point.
M.def in general is a rather weak stat, imo.
Spells are rarely thrown at you (boss-only spells are mostly physical even), the best you can get is 8 damage reduction per point (physical goes up to 15), and then half of them are INT other PIE based defense. For a rebalance it might make more sense to make all spell damage INT based and unify the m.def to PIE or something like that, so you are not getting nothing out of your displayed m.def 90% of the time.

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