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praetarius5018

Road to 2.0

204 posts in this topic

This will be the final update.

Current plans:

  • prepatch english translation
  • Lv60 capstone
  • inbattle item usage requires 4 TP
  • misc. patch to disable pop up messages for (de)buffs and ailments
  • change damage colors to make it possible to differentiate between Lv1 techs, counters and (enemy) crits
  • only gain once TP per attack instead of per target/hit
  • invalidate the entire job discussion topic
  • expand on cursed item mechanic
  • expand on stat requirement for spell learning and limit known spells to 10, maybe add some spells to classes that have less than 12 spells to add some choices
  • replace accessoires that remove a single weakness, their effect gets roled into the add resist accessoire
  • finally get rid of the low attack scaling weapon

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I love these ideas. These sound like major changes; all very exciting. Some questions/suggestions:

1) Can you expand on what you intend to do to "invalidate job discussion topic"? Most of the limitations for team building are around finding class combinations that meet certain spell requirements (mainly Heal Light and defensive buffs/debuffs). Do you plan to get rid of these limitations by making these skills more accessible or less necessary? (I also love the idea to limit the number of spells to 10 per class; 12 really crowds the ring).

2) On a related note, have you considered making the after-battle heal standard at some point (maybe at the Capstone?) instead of requiring Heal Light? This would make many more class combinations competitive.

3) If you plan to make item usage dependent on tech points, you may also want to consider a standard tech point gain for spell casting for those classes that cast more often than swing weapons. (It seems like you've already started towards this in the current update.)

4) Hawk could use a Heal Light option (Wanderer?).

5) Duran and Angela's level 1 techs only hit once, despite having two clear swings and having "Double" in the title. This is obviously a low priority issue, since there are actually some timing advantages for counterattacks that have a longer swing.

Also, I really appreciate all the hard work and innovative thinking you've put into this project over the years. I am not familiar with hex editing but I would love to help or contribute in any way possible :-)

Edited by rpschamp

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5 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

1) Can you expand on what you intend to do to "invalidate job discussion topic"?

That's just tongue in cheak; changing the spell limit from 12 known to 10 and adding cap stones basically makes most of the info from that topic wrong or at least incomplete.

7 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

2) On a related note, have you considered making the after-battle heal standard at some point (maybe at the Capstone?) instead of requiring Heal Light? This would make many more class combinations competitive.

Capstone would be way too late for that, lv60 is like 3/4 through the game, if you made it this far without Heal Light you can just as well finish without it.

8 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

3) If you plan to make item usage dependent on tech points, you may also want to consider a standard tech point gain for spell casting for those classes that cast more often than swing weapons. (It seems like you've already started towards this in the current update.)

That's one point still open for debate.
Could make MP regen ticks also give +1 TP or something.
Feel free to throw some ideas around.

15 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

4) Hawk could use a Heal Light option (Wanderer?).

There's a hard limit of 12 per character list for potential learnable spells, all Hawks except for Ninjamaster should be at that already.

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3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
3 hours ago, rpschamp said:

2) On a related note, have you considered making the after-battle heal standard at some point (maybe at the Capstone?) instead of requiring Heal Light? This would make many more class combinations competitive.

Capstone would be way too late for that, lv60 is like 3/4 through the game, if you made it this far without Heal Light you can just as well finish without it.

You are right; I usually play on Normal, so by my imagination level 60 is workable. On Hard, probably not.

Maybe the first class change is a better idea, just to make the game a little more fluid for everyone?

Importantly, a standard after-battle heal would make No Heal Light teams much more reasonable to run.

3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
3 hours ago, rpschamp said:

3) If you plan to make item usage dependent on tech points, you may also want to consider a standard tech point gain for spell casting for those classes that cast more often than swing weapons. (It seems like you've already started towards this in the current update.)

That's one point still open for debate.
Could make MP regen ticks also give +1 TP or something.
Feel free to throw some ideas around.

I was actually going to suggest the +1 TP at MP regen ticks. I still think that a spell cast should be worth at least as many tech points as a melee attack. I like the idea of the new Red Moon Horn giving TP with spells cast, only now, there's not too much a spell caster can do with those tech points. If you make in-battle item use require TP, that gives them something else to do. One way you could set this up:

+1 TP for each melee attack OR spell cast.

+1 TP at MP regen ticks; this gives the intelligence stat another purpose for fighters.

–3 TP for in-battle item use. –4 is too much; 3 item uses for a full 9 TP bar sounds more reasonable. This way, a full tech bar gives you a steady progression of 1 item use before the first class change, 2 items after the first class change, and 3 items after the second class change.

EDIT: Also, some item-associated classes like Rogue (or even Sage, i.e. Alchemist), or even the first weapon (instead of its experience bonus) or an accessory, could grant bonuses like –1 TP required per item use. This may be a good way to add a unique element to these classes.

3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
3 hours ago, rpschamp said:

4) Hawk could use a Heal Light option (Wanderer?).

There's a hard limit of 12 per character list for potential learnable spells, all Hawks except for Ninjamaster should be at that already.

Well, if you're already getting rid of two spells to make it 10 per character, you might as well get rid of one more. Personally, I would get rid of the following:

- Body Change (leave that for Rogue; though I would consider getting rid of the player's ability to use chibikko effect altogether, including Freya and the weapons; maybe Freya could add Snowman or Leaf Coat instead?)

- Lunatic (again, leave that special for Rogue and Nightblade)

- Energy Ball (I actually like this on Wanderer, but Heal Light would be more useful; maybe it could transfer to Rogue for one of his less useful throwy things)

But my main point is that by bringing other classes up to 10 spells, you may be stepping on Wanderer's toes a bit, giving them access to a spell variety that used to be Wanderer's niche. One way to fix this is by giving Wanderer an extra really useful spell like Heal Light. I know that this would step on Paladin's toes in turn as the only other Antimagic/Heal Light user, but Paladin already has room for four more abilities to compensate, and there are so many ways around Antimagic now, I'm not sure that it's as essential as it used to be. Also, I don't think that this would make Wanderer too powerful if the after-battle heal became standard.

EDIT: With Heal Light on Wanderer and –1 TP required per item use on Rogue, Light Hawk would gain some defensive versatility that would make him a more attractive alternative to Dark Hawk.

Edited by rpschamp

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Two more questions/suggestions:

1) What are you thinking for the capstones? Would this be a completely new final class? Would it's bonuses be in terms of stats or abilities? Also, are you thinking one capstone or two for each character (one for each initial Light/Dark path)?

2) Apart from the standard stat buffs/debuffs, it would be also nice to spread out the basic elemental sabers (earth, wind, ice, fire) a bit; maybe just one saber here and there. This would make it possible for more class combinations to go for a (cast on enemy) saber/resist strategy. For example, if you want to go for a saber/resist strategy in any of the these four basic sabers, you need to bring along Dark Duran, Light Carlie, or Dark Angela, only 3 of the total 12 first class changes. Spreading these out would also make the light, dark, leaf, and moon sabers more special. As it is now, it's easier to go for a Dark Saber/resist strategy than any of the four basic sabers, being available to Dark Duran, Dark Kevin, Dark Carlie, and Light Lise, 4 of the total 12 first class changes.

By making this strategy more accessible, more players would use the resistance armor, and enemy melee damage in the endgame would be more sustainable.

EDIT: Final classes that could stand to learn one or two saber spells (with suggestions in parentheses): Paladin (Earth), Lord (Wind), God Hand (Light, maybe instead of Moon, to balance out his classes and make Dervish's saber spell unique), Ninja Master (Fire), Nightblade (Ice), Vanadis (Earth, Wind), Dragon Master (Fire), and Fenrir Knight (Ice, since her Moon and Leaf Sabers cannot be used for resistance purposes).

Edited by rpschamp

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9 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Maybe the first class change is a better idea, just to make the game a little more fluid for everyone?

I've some plans to solve that via equipment.

9 hours ago, rpschamp said:

I was actually going to suggest the +1 TP at MP regen ticks. I still think that a spell cast should be worth at least as many tech points as a melee attack. I like the idea of the new Red Moon Horn giving TP with spells cast, only now, there's not too much a spell caster can do with those tech points.

Lv2/3 techs gain extra damage based on INT so at least for Angela they have some synergy, and even without STR investment it should be worth it for caster to keep 4 TP and try to get a counter in to reduce enemy aggro rating.

9 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Well, if you're already getting rid of two spells to make it 10 per character

You misunderstood what I planned there; characters keep their 12 spell lists but get limited to holding a max of 10.
Which 2 fall away will be decided by the player by meeting the stat requirements for the other 10 spells first.

8 hours ago, rpschamp said:

1) What are you thinking for the capstones? Would this be a completely new final class? Would it's bonuses be in terms of stats or abilities? Also, are you thinking one capstone or two for each character (one for each initial Light/Dark path)?

At level 60 the game checks which of the 6 stats is currently the highest (in case of draw choose the topmost one) and then gives a bonus based on that, the lists will be per character, not per class. E.g. for Charlie it could look like this:
STR - Lv2/3 techs inflict "wood coat" effect unless fire saber is active
AGL - enemies spawn with -20 evade
VIT - 50 maxHP, 10 p.def&m.def
INT - light&dark elemental spells deal more damage
PIE - Tinkle Rain recovers 33% HP for target when clearing a status effect
LUK - spells cost 25% MP (capped at 2) less

8 hours ago, rpschamp said:

2) Apart from the standard stat buffs/debuffs, it would be also nice to spread out the basic elemental sabers (earth, wind, ice, fire) a bit

MAYBE, but the thing is that it shouldn't be as universally applicable to perform that strategy.
They are about as spread out as the regular buffs.

Dark saber is only available on Swordmaster, Duelist, Deathhand, Necromancer and Starlancer - 5 classes, 4 characters.
Saint saber via: Paladin, Swordmaster, Bishop and Starlancer - 4 classes, 3 characters.
Elemental saber via: Swordmaster, Duelist, Rune Master, Grand Divina, Bishop and Sage - 6 classes, 3 characters.
Not too much of a difference.

Moon&leaf saber are for HP/MP regen which is useful without gearing specifically for it.

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4 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

Elemental saber via: Swordmaster, Duelist, Rune Master, Grand Divina, Bishop and Sage - 6 classes, 3 characters.

The Grand Divina sabers can't be used for saber/resistance, since they can't be cast on the enemy as sabers (i.e., they become the standard level 1 elemental spells).

4 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

MAYBE, but the thing is that it shouldn't be as universally applicable to perform that strategy.
They are about as spread out as the regular buffs.

Because the saber/resist strategy generally has more severe equipment requirements to get everyone's resistance to match up, I think they can stand to be spread out more than the buffs/debuffs, which have no equipment requirements (except for maybe Whitelight Ring, which is also true for saber spells). I like the idea of almost any team being able to achieve some sort of defensive buff/debuff, e.g. through saber spells, although it may mean sacrificing equipment slots to do it, especially in the endgame where it becomes a matter of survivability. When enemies are dealing hundreds of HP in damage per hit (and enemy melee occurs much more frequently than spells), a 45% melee/tech debuff is really too useful an option to consider building a team without, and this will restrict team building options.

I actually think the standard stat buffs/debuffs have a pretty good spread as they are, especially in the 1.2 update.

13 hours ago, rpschamp said:

+1 TP for each melee attack OR spell cast.

+1 TP at MP regen ticks; this gives the intelligence stat another purpose for fighters.

–3 TP for in-battle item use. –4 is too much; 3 item uses for a full 9 TP bar sounds more reasonable. This way, a full tech bar gives you a steady progression of 1 item use before the first class change, 2 items after the first class change, and 3 items after the second class change.

EDIT: Also, some item-associated classes like Rogue (or even Sage, i.e. Alchemist), or even the first weapon (instead of its experience bonus) or an accessory, could grant bonuses like –1 TP required per item use. This may be a good way to add a unique element to these classes.

What do you think of all this? I like the idea of having some way to achieve easier item usage, either through a class (Capstone?) bonus or a weapon or accessory. You mentioned in an old post that you were struggling to find something to distinguish the Rogue; a –1 TP required per item use bonus would do it. Another idea would be to have this instead as a Capstone bonus for Hawk, which might be nice way to give Hawk some additional healing power without giving him a Heal Light option.

Edited by rpschamp

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2 hours ago, rpschamp said:

a 45% melee/tech debuff is really too useful an option to consider building a team without, and this will restrict team building options.

45%... yeah, I should nerf this.

2 hours ago, rpschamp said:

What do you think of all this? I like the idea of having some way to achieve easier item usage, either through a class (Capstone?) bonus or a weapon or accessory. You mentioned in an old post that you were struggling to find something to distinguish the Rogue; a –1 TP required per item use bonus would do it.

Here's my problem:
MP is a resource, TP is a resource.
If you can convert one resource into the other with no requirements (item, capstone, ..) there's no point to having 2 resources in the first place.
To an extend this change makes items the "spells" of melee;
you can use MP to cast heal light or def up or fireball or whatever you know.
you can use TP to perform a tech or use item X/Y/Z.

TP on MP regen doesn't work; MP regen is stopped while casting so it would NOT help casters and only buff melee.

I want to set the cost to 4 TP because I see items here as a counterpart to L1 techs
and also because you have a clear indicator then when the tech bar turns from blue to green.

2 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Another idea would be to have this instead as a Capstone bonus for Hawk, which might be nice way to give Hawk some additional healing power without giving him a Heal Light option.

Remember, capstones come late, if we discuss effects that could be seen as the core of a class/character they shouldn't come that late.

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2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

45%... yeah, I should nerf this.

If it's possible to distinguish saber effects cast by players on enemies from those cast by enemies or those cast by players on themselves, then this effect should probably be nerfed. Otherwise it would interfere with the whole weakness/resistance balance. Nerfing it would accomplish the goal of make it less essential. If you made the defense bonus on par with Power Down, then they would be interchangeable in team building; teams could go for one or the other, or both.

Even with the nerf though, I still like the idea of spreading more saber spells out so that more teams have access to this technique. Unlike Protect Up or Power Down, it has a built in cost in terms of equipment requirements that makes it less valuable than either of those, so it should be more common. Think of it as a poorer quality version of the real thing, but achievable by more class combinations.

2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

Here's my problem:
MP is a resource, TP is a resource.
If you can convert one resource into the other with no requirements (item, capstone, ..) there's no point to having 2 resources in the first place.
To an extend this change makes items the "spells" of melee;
you can use MP to cast heal light or def up or fireball or whatever you know.
you can use TP to perform a tech or use item X/Y/Z.

I see your point. So, an item like Red Moon Horn would serve as the requirement to let casters accumulate "item" points. I like this; you can purchase Red Moon Horn just before the first class change when multiple spells per battle become the norm.

I also like your idea of reducing the double hitters to one tech point per attack. If you set it so that you gain one tech point as long as any one hit connects, they still have some advantage in terms of tech points, although also some disadvantage because their double attacks take longer to execute. It should balance nicely.

2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

TP on MP regen doesn't work; MP regen is stopped while casting so it would NOT help casters and only buff melee.

Yes, I should have thought of this. There would be no point.

2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I want to set the cost to 4 TP because I see items here as a counterpart to L1 techs
and also because you have a clear indicator then when the tech bar turns from blue to green.

This makes sense. But then it would be nice if there were still some way to subtract 1 from this requirement, so that a full tech bar gets you two items after the first class change and three after the second.

2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

Remember, capstones come late, if we discuss effects that could be seen as the core of a class/character they shouldn't come that late.

If 4 TP is the standard, then you could offer the 3 TP per item use effect as a non-cumulative effect achievable by different conditions. For example, Ranger could get this effect automatically at the first class change, thus giving Light Hawk some early extra heal functionality without Heal Light, but it could also be available through equipment. If you put this effect on an accessory, then combining this accessory with the Mistscreen Charm will let you perform two item uses after three attacks, but use up all your accessory slots; still, you may consider this too powerful for an accessory. If you put this effect on a weapon, then you could nerf the character's melee as a tradeoff for granting more access to items. This would also give spell casters another way to gain access to increased item usage, since they are more likely to use a weapon with poor attack stats if it offers some other benefit. (Probably not the first weapon as I suggested earlier if you want 4 TP to be the obvious requirement at the beginning of the game, though you could give a later weapon with this effect similar attack stats to the first weapon.)

EDIT: Giving this ability to Light Hawk instead of Heal Light fits nicely with his role as the “versatile” class choice: While not as powerful as a proper Heal Light spell, it gives Light Hawk a unique edge over other classes by granting him some small extra ability to use items for different purposes without sacrificing a spell slot. This edge is important as other classes increase their own versatility by filling out their spell slots, which Light Hawk can no longer do.

Edited by rpschamp

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38 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

If it's possible to distinguish saber effects cast by players on enemies from those cast by enemies or those cast by players on themselves, then this effect should probably be nerfed.

Not it can't, though the 45% is optimistic;
saber give +10% atk before def so it can easily be a 20-40% increase.
With resist that is then 30-40% damage reduction.

Ironically the better your def is the less the saber resist strategy helps in percentage.
If your def was so godly that it eats 90% of the damage you'd gain 0% change:
100-90=10, add resisted saber: (110-90)/2=10

41 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I also like your idea of reducing the double hitters to one tech point per attack. If you set it so that you gain one tech point as long as any one hit connects, they still have some advantage in terms of tech points, although also some disadvantage because their double attacks take longer to execute. It should balance nicely.

That is how it works. Hawk&Kevin no longer build their tech bar twice as fast but still are more likely to get the TP on strike because they'd have to miss twice to not get the TP.

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24 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Not it can't, though the 45% is optimistic;
saber give +10% atk before def so it can easily be a 20-40% increase.
With resist that is then 30-40% damage reduction.

Ironically the better your def is the less the saber resist strategy helps in percentage.
If your def was so godly that it eats 90% of the damage you'd gain 0% change:
100-90=10, add resisted saber: (110-90)/2=10

Like you said though, as the difference between attack and defense grows, this debuff approaches 45%. This should be fairly consistent in high damage situations by the time you reach the endgame, i.e. when you really need it. Some more examples (from one of my previous posts):

Enemy attack 300, player defense 100: normal damage = 200, sabered/resisted damage = (330-100)/2 = 115 = 42.5% reduction

Enemy attack 300, player defense 150: normal damage = 150, sabered/resisted damage = (330-150)/2 = 90 = 40% reduction

Enemy attack 300, player defense 250: normal damage = 50, sabered/resisted damage = (330-250)/2 = 40 = 20% reduction

Enemy attack 300, player defense 280: normal damage = 20, sabered/resisted damage = (330-280)/2 = 25 = 25% increase

From these numbers, if you're taking melee damage over 150 HP without any buffs/debuffs, you should be in the 40-45% range. The funny thing is that in low damage situations, you can actually end up increasing enemy damage, but you would never actually use this strategy in those situations.

EDIT: I guess my main point with all this is that a 40-45% debuff on melee/tech damage in the endgame, when random battles become much more difficult, may be too much for a conscientious player to ignore when planning a team. This is why spreading out the basic sabers more would provide more options for team building.

Edited by rpschamp

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I've here endgame (mana holy land) atk values from 320 (shaman) to 512 (dark lord).

28 VIT, heavy armor - 322 def, could push it a bit more if I wanted

regular 512 - 322 => 190 damage
saberd (563 - 322)/2 => 120 damage, 37% less

the shaman goes from 0 to (352-322)/2 = 15, tickle damage

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40 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I've here endgame (mana holy land) atk values from 320 (shaman) to 512 (dark lord).

28 VIT, heavy armor - 322 def, could push it a bit more if I wanted

regular 512 - 322 => 190 damage
saberd (563 - 322)/2 => 120 damage, 37% less

the shaman goes from 0 to (352-322)/2 = 15, tickle damage

Still though, 37% is on par with the combined effect of Protect Up and Power Down (40%).

Another idea: Would it be possible for certain classes to gain one selectable saber spell based on stat increases? Maybe after reaching the second class change, one class for each character could learn one saber spell based on which stat you increase first (e.g., STR = Earth, AGI = Wind, VIT = Fire, INT = Water, SPI = Light, LUC = Dark)? This way, the player could select the saber spell based on their team's weakness/resistance profile if they want to take advantage of this saber/resist strategy. The choice of one saber spell would not have too much of an impact offensively, and anything that leads to increased customizability is generally a nice addition.

EDIT: I would put this selectable saber spell on Lord, God Hand (instead of Moon Saber), Ninja Master or Nightblade, Grand Divina (instead of Speed Up, so she can access this saber/resist strategy which is not possible with her final weapon), Sage (instead of Life Booster), and Vanadis.

Edited by rpschamp

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1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

Somehow I get the feeling you focus too much on one mechanic and ignore everything else.

I agree, I do tend to over-focus on things. This can be a fault; I tend to take things to their natural conclusion and then a little further. I apologize if I came across as pushy. I'm just coming from the perspective of someone who has been thinking about team building on this mod for the past few years. You know how these things go; certain skills get classified "essential" for team building. Heal Light, Protect Up, Power Down, Mind Up, Mind Down, etc. This restricts creativity as players tend to focus on creating only teams that have access to all or most of these skills.

My main concern is that none of these skills should become too dominant in restricting team formation, to encourage player creativity. I know that you're thinking along the same lines too, by increasing options to access the after-battle heal for example, or by spreading out stat buffs/debuffs over the past few updates.

Sometimes this tunnel-vision does result in an interesting idea. I do think a selectable saber spell could be a cool addition for some classes.

Also, I did offer suggestions on several other mechanics; it's just that I tend to agree with what you have planned for most of these. But I will take your advice and try to think more broadly from now on :-)

Mostly, I'm just really excited about your ideas for 2.0. Plus, my main computer is on the fritz, so I've just been hanging out on email and chat for the past few days. I guess this means it's time to revive some old hobbies!

Edited by rpschamp

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By the way, where does the handle Praetarius come from, if you don't mind me asking? It has the ring of a Roman emperor to it.

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Wow, it's a shame that you'll stop updating this project after the final release.  Thank you for all your work.

Hmm.  For the final product, perhaps you should modify the title screen to "Sin of Mana", or "Seiken Densetsu 3: Sin of Mana".  There are other people who modified the title for this game, so I'm guessing someone of your skill can do it too.  It would really feel like it's complete.

Or just add the "Sin of Mana" to whatever title that the users use (japanese, Seiken Densetsu 3, Trials of Mana, etc) -- similar to what Queue did for his Secret of Mana Turbo (he adds Turbo at the bottom of whatever title the user uses).

And speaking of the title name, I think "Sins (plural) of Mana" sounds better than "Sin of Mana".  I'm not entirely sure why it sounds better though.  Food for thought.

Edited by hmsong

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10 hours ago, rpschamp said:

My main concern is that none of these skills should become too dominant in restricting team formation, to encourage player creativity.

I design down from hard mode (as in I start there and whatever happens in the lower difficulties as a result of that happens)
and tbh in hard mode I expect that the player has those skills as a minimum.
On normal which is like half damage input you can drop all of those skills without problem.

And I must say that hardmode endgame has become "too easy" for what it should be if that makes sense.
I had a Lv90 Kevin with a mere 20 VIT. Without buffs he only took like 200 damage from most mobs that weren't sabered elemental swords.
Not to ignore that he would get missed at least half the time anyway.
That is as good as braindead facetank range.
Not even any specific gear, just the medium armor from the start and 2 gauntlets.

We're talking ~50 damage vs 950 HP if he had def up on self and power down + correct saber on the mobs.
While he could still gain HP steal, passive HP regen, Sage's HP regen aura and big recovery on yellow damage hits.
Player skill has lost any relevance at that point.

9 hours ago, rpschamp said:

By the way, where does the handle Praetarius come from, if you don't mind me asking? It has the ring of a Roman emperor to it.

I hacked randomly on my keyboard, added vowels and dropped some letters until I could pronounce it. There's no deeper meaning.

5 hours ago, hmsong said:

And speaking of the title name, I think "Sins (plural) of Mana" sounds better than "Sin of Mana".  I'm not entirely sure why it sounds better though.  Food for thought.

But there is only ONE slaying of the Mana Goddess.

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But there is only ONE slaying of the Mana Goddess.

True, but there are three evil factions (sort of).  Besides, there were multiple atrocities that were committed in the regular world, which is the root cause of Mana weakening in the first place.  And above all else, I think "Sins" of Mana sounds cooler.  It just... rolls off the tongue.

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7 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
17 hours ago, rpschamp said:

My main concern is that none of these skills should become too dominant in restricting team formation, to encourage player creativity.

I design down from hard mode (as in I start there and whatever happens in the lower difficulties as a result of that happens)
and tbh in hard mode I expect that the player has those skills as a minimum.
On normal which is like half damage input you can drop all of those skills without problem.

This was really my only point. In the current and past versions, I considered saber/resist to be one of these functions like Heal Light, Protect Up, and Power Down that a player should have at minimum on hard mode, and by expanding access to saber spells, more teams could compete on the level for which the game was designed/intended. I also happen to really like this strategy; it incorporates more of the game's mechanics, and you have to be aware of your innate resistances and weaknesses in order to use it properly.

BUT!

I can now see that with increased access to after-battle Heal, Capstones, and other new additions, you're already adding increased customizability that should allow more teams to compete on hard mode. For example, I decided not to go with Fenrir Knight/Wanderer/Grand Divina in the current version because Magic Shield is too clunky to cast on all three players for random battles, and they didn't have access a saber/resist option. BUT, in 2.0, I may be able to run Fenrir Knight/Wanderer/Rune Master instead since there should be another after-battle heal option, I can use Fenrir Knight for in-battle heal, and Rune Master gives me access to an easy Flame Saber/resist option with Valkyrie Mail on Fenrir Knight to substitute for Protect Up during random battles. Problem solved :-)

5 hours ago, hmsong said:
Quote

But there is only ONE slaying of the Mana Goddess.

True, but there are three evil factions (sort of).  Besides, there were multiple atrocities that were committed in the regular world, which is the root cause of Mana weakening in the first place.  And above all else, I think "Sins" of Mana sounds cooler.  It just... rolls off the tongue.

By my recollection, each of the God Beast's (re-)designed A.I.s/gimmicks was originally conceived by Praetarius as based one of the Seven Deadly Sins:

Spoiler

Dolan = Wrath (do you really need to ask why?)

Dangaard = Pride (it takes three forms for him to get serious on the fourth)

Land Umber = Greed (this is a guess; Gemstone Valley, i.e. Jewels/Riches?)

Lightgazer = Sloth (spends most of the time disappearing and reappearing)

Mispolm = Envy (copies/reflects your attacks)

Fiegmund = Gluttony (eats more and more HP the longer you hang around)

Xan Bie = Lust (this is also a guess; Valley of Flames, i.e. Passions/Desires?)

By my count, this makes seven sins already; the slaying of the Mana Goddess makes eight. However, the slaying of the Mana Goddess could be thought of the ultimate "Sin of Mana".

Because the God Beasts are really the centerpiece of the game, I would probably go for "Sins" instead of "Sin", but I see reason for either. And, if it doesn't appear on the title screen, you can call it whatever you want :-)

7 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
17 hours ago, rpschamp said:

By the way, where does the handle Praetarius come from, if you don't mind me asking? It has the ring of a Roman emperor to it.

I hacked randomly on my keyboard, added vowels and dropped some letters until I could pronounce it. There's no deeper meaning.

I love this. Let fate decide. Much better story than my handle....

Edited by rpschamp

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24 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

By my recollection, each of the God Beast's (re-)designed A.I.s/gimmicks was originally conceived by Praetarius as based one of the Seven Deadly Sins:

  Hide contents

Dolan = Wrath (do you really need to ask why?)

Dangaard = Pride (it takes three forms for him to get serious on the fourth)

Land Umber = Greed (this is a guess; Gemstone Valley, i.e. Jewels/Riches?)

Lightgazer = Sloth (spends most of the time disappearing and reappearing)

Mispolm = Envy (copies/reflects your attacks)

Fiegmund = Gluttony (eats more and more HP the longer you hang around)

Xan Bie = Lust (this is also a guess; Valley of Flames, i.e. Passions/Desires?)

 

eh, close enough

Spoiler

Dolan = Wrath
totally a stretch, noone would ever rage at him :D

Dangaard = Pride
takes you not seriously for 3 phases and in 4th reveals his trump card in lv3 saber-buffed mt skills.
ofc after 3 easily beaten phases the player might also feel high and mighty before that attack hits home.

Land Umber = Greed
notice how he only throws dirt and stones at you, never diamond missiles or diamond saber.

Lightgazer = Sloth
too lazy to exist half the time; gives it one half assed effort at the start then not again.
he also makes your healing "half assed".

Mispolm = Gluttony
food based, the tentacles like to eat you and the reflection gimmick punishes a player's gluttony for dps.

Fiegmund = Envy
notice how he is immune to fire? he's freezing to death. he's envious of your ability to not do that.
plus the whole out of reach thing when he hides off-screen or below the stage, aren't you envious of that?

Xan Bie = Lust
battle lust specifically; lust can refer to any strong desire for a non-material thing, thrilling battles in his case)

 

39 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

BUT, in 2.0, I may be able to run Fenrir Knight/Wanderer/Rune Master instead since there should be another after-battle heal option, I can use Fenrir Knight for in-battle heal, and Rune Master gives me accesss to an easy Flame Saber/resist strategy with Valkyrie Mail on Lise. Problem solved :-)

This is only an idea currently but:

Spoiler

Maia would sell an accessoire with the following effect (replaces the current small p.def&m.def accessoire):
cursed (can't EVER be unequipped), teaches Regeneration (one/all).

Regeneration is currently a spell Zable Fahr uses but only as part of the cutscene where it revives the side heads so it does nothing;
used normally it actually deals damage.
I would repurpose that spell as Heal Light's little brother which would also qualify for the full heal after battle.

Again, you have then only space for 10 spells per character and it permanently eats an equip slot.

 

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1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

eh, close enough

Wow, I only switched Envy and Gluttony, I'm pretty pleased with myself hahaha

By the way,

Spoiler

I never understood the Fiegmund Dark weakness. He lives in a cave... so wouldn't he be used to/resistant to Dark instead?

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

This is only an idea currently but:

  Reveal hidden contents
Spoiler

Great idea. Only one character would need this, and you could have some control over which skill you dumped to replace it.

Do you plan to give it a HP recovery over time effect similar to Gigas Flail, to distinguish it from Heal Light? Then you could come up with a new effect for Gigas Flail, or just make Gigas Flail additive with Regeneration so it could be more useful in the endgame.

 

Edited by rpschamp

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Also,

Spoiler

You mentioned earlier that you planned to collapse removing weakness and adding resistance into one stroke. This opens up a set of accessories to repurpose!

Have you considered adding other learnable spells into that set of accessories? I suppose you'd have to make them available earlier since most players know all or most of their spells before they reach that point in the game.

 

Edited by rpschamp

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Dunno why that needs a spoiler, that is literally the second last point of the list.

I'm not sure what other spell would be equally important to learn. Suggestions?

Items to be removed/replaced:
-weapon with low scaling high base
-one of the 2 remove weakness helms (the other gets both)
-2 resistance armors (the 3rd gets 2 resistances instead)
-all remove weakness accessoires (the +resist will handle both)
-accessoire that gives low p.def and m.def at the same time
-accessoire that gives low bonus to accuracy and evade

Edited by praetarius5018

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This requires some thought so I will post separately as I think of things.

What about a set accessories to add a status effect (Poison, Silence, Sleep, etc.) with a strong attack? These could have a TP or MP cost to apply their effect to limit their power. You could have the stronger status effects, i.e. Petrify, cost more TP or MP. The mechanic would be similar to the low recovery strong attack with the new Wendel weapons, but more useful; this mechanic seems like it could be repurposed for other things as well.

Edited by rpschamp

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