Road to 2.0

[praetarius5018 111]

plans for helms:

• the 2 "remove weakness" helms get merged into one (beryl helm)
• leather helm (mixed def) becomes pure p.def
• visored helm (pure p.def) gets status resistance to chibikko/moogle, silence
• hero's crown (status resist) becomes cursed and prevents stop of MP regen during casting
• protection helm (2nd remove weakness) becomes cursed with x1.3 p.def but 0 def against Lv2/3 techs for the true vanilla like experience

[smileless 0]

Ah the old days where the Dark Lord's were able to one/two shot your entire party with their level 3 techs whenever they felt like.

Edited May 22, 2020 by smileless

[rpschamp 0]

15 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

the 2 "remove weakness" helms get merged into one (beryl helm)

So the same effect as the Byzel remove weakness armor? Or do you plan to change that one?

15 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

• visored helm (pure p.def) gets status resistance to chibikko/moogle, silence
• hero's crown (status resist) becomes cursed and prevents stop of MP regen during casting

A chibikko/moogle/silence resist helm would be useful. But there would only be two resist death options, undead armor and Wishbone. I can see that.

15 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

protection helm (2nd remove weakness) becomes cursed with x1.3 p.def but 0 def against Lv2/3 techs for the true vanilla like experience

I wonder if there are actually players who would want to go back to this.... Joking aside, I could see this potentially being useful on a Star Lancer team.

Edited May 22, 2020 by rpschamp

[rpschamp 0]

19 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I'm not sure I can find a HP/s value at this point that wouldn't royally break the game.
This would stack with the HP regen ring and Sage's weapon which together already maxes at 20/s (well, "second"). So that can easily recover 100~200 HP between boss attacks, do you take that much after buffs? Is even more easy regen really needed?

I have to take care that that value doesn't reach "afk mode".

edit: 25/s, the rings stack

One option for the Regeneration spell is to have it do either HP/time OR targeted HP recovery, depending on when it is cast,

i.e., 1-5 HP/s for all party members if cast outside of battle (1/3 the effect of current Gigas Flail), an early upkeep effect that some players might prefer,

OR targeted HP recovery if cast in battle, maybe half the effect of Heal Light.

You could have it cost 6 MP so most characters could actually cast it earlier.

The net effect would be that players would have to choose whether to pay the upkeep for a small HP/time effect, or not pay the upkeep, but be able to do targeted HP recovery during battle.

This would also get players used to managing upkeep early in the game, i.e. when and how to turn it on and off; certainly they would have to make this decision at least before every boss fight.

(major EDITS to this post made 9:20 am)

Edited May 22, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

4 hours ago, smileless said:

Ah the old days where the Dark Lord's were able to one/two shot your entire party with their level 3 techs whenever they felt like.

And nightblades. And bloody wolves.

3 hours ago, rpschamp said:

So the same effect as the Byzel remove weakness armor? Or do you plan to change that one?

Will be the same. The current byzel armor only removes one weakness, that will be changed.

3 hours ago, rpschamp said:

A chibikko/moogle/silence resist helm would be useful.

Half the resistances are on the helm, the other half will be on one armor; snowman will be irresistable.

3 hours ago, rpschamp said:

I wonder if there are actually players who would want to go back to this.... Joking aside, I could see this potentially being useful on a Star Lancer team.

I mean we already have a cursed ring that removes weaknesses and resistances, so one step further to a vanilla-like-set can't hurt

3 hours ago, rpschamp said:

One option for the Regeneration spell is to have it do either HP/time OR targeted HP recovery, depending on when it is cast

I went with it granting the same effect as the regeneration ring which gets doubled effect but no longer stacks.

[rpschamp 0]

4 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I mean we already have a cursed ring that removes weaknesses and resistances, so one step further to a vanilla-like-set can't hurt

I suppose then that these are the truly cursed items :-)

[praetarius5018 111]

Yeah, it'll be expanded to a nearly vanilla like set, I've basically ideas for all everything except a weapon since I don't want to mark weapons as "cursed".

• armor: cursed, 2x power up buff effect on standard attacks, increased aggro build up
• helm: cursed, x1.3 p.def, 0 defense vs Lv2/3 techs
• ring1: cursed, deny elements
• ring2: cursed, can't crit or be critted, same for evade
• set bonus: 1/4 cast time

[rpschamp 0]

6 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I went with it granting the same effect as the regeneration ring which gets doubled effect but no longer stacks.

So the wearer of the ring learns Regeneration, which can be cast/upkeep to put a 1-5 HP/s regeneration effect on one ally at 8 mp. Do I have that right?

And does the after-battle heal effect require the wearer to have 8 MP?

[praetarius5018 111]

After-battle effect is free, rest yes.

[rpschamp 0]

7 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

After-battle effect is free, rest yes.

I just meant in terms of maxMP, since the original idea was that the caster could just cast the spells repeatedly as MP regenerates to recover HP before the next screen, but they would at least need the maxMP to cast the spell. Only Angela (and maybe Carlie) typically has 8 MP by the time you hit Maia.

At an 8 MP cost, few characters could actually cast the spell by the time they have the option to equip the ring.

Edited May 22, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

Ah, well I wanted to increase MP curve a bit anyway. I guess making sure you have 8 MP at 6 INT shouldn't be too much off.

[rpschamp 0]

7 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Ah, well I wanted to increase MP curve a bit anyway. I guess making sure you have 8 MP at 6 INT shouldn't be too much off.

This all sounds good to me; great new item. The ring could be set to teach Regeneration AT 6 INT, when you have enough MP to cast it, just like a stat requirement for a normal spell. Then there wouldn't be any weirdness; i.e. knowing a spell you can't cast.

5 hours ago, smileless said:

Ah the old days where the Dark Lord's were able to one/two shot your entire party with their level 3 techs whenever they felt like.

I have PTSD from this that kicks in sometimes during some of the later sequences.

Edited May 22, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

1 minute ago, rpschamp said:

This all sounds good to me; great new item. The ring could be set to teach Regeneration AT 6 INT, when you have enough MP to cast it, just like a stat requirement for a normal spell. Then there wouldn't be any weirdness; i.e. knowing a spell you can't cast.

Nah, you should get the spell immediatly so you can see how much MP you should have and can adjust your stat gains if necessary.

[rpschamp 0]

1 minute ago, praetarius5018 said:

Nah, you should get the spell immediatly so you can see how much MP you should have and can adjust your stat gains if necessary.

As long as it doesn't introduce any new bugs haha, I agree this is the better route.

[smileless 0]

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

And nightblades. And bloody wolves

Them too but I specifically think Dark Lord's did the most damage with their level 3 techs or am I wrong?

They one shot me the most out of that group.

Edited May 22, 2020 by smileless

[praetarius5018 111]

21 minutes ago, smileless said:

Them too but I specifically think Dark Lord's did the most damage with their level 3 techs or am I wrong?

That is mostly a matter of mob attack power and therefor level. And the difference at the same level isn't that huge in vanilla.
I guess Dark Lords usually appear the latest so would automatically have the highest attack.
Or rather the 10% increase from their usual dark saber puts them over the edge big time.

L3 in vanilla take the attack power of the user, multiply it by 2.5 and only then subtract your def. Def is capped at 300 even with buff. So even if the mob had a measly 250 attack that would be a guaranteed 325 damage at maxed def, half the cast doesn't clear 600 maxHP at sane endgame levels.
I think the highest dark lords have around 340 base attack, i.e. "you die" damage (340x1.1x2.5 = 935 before def).

[hmsong 0]

For 2.0, perhaps you can give someone Detect ability.  There is a slot, and there is animation.  Why not use it?

I know you can't really make "Analyzer" from Secrets, but you can give it AntiMagic property to it, except for your allies (basically Stardust Herb).  As in, "detect" any abnormalities.

[smileless 0]

Analyze is actually in the mod, but it has a different function in this mod than in secret of mana.

It lowers resistance to critical hits, Ninja Master and Warrior Monk have access to that spell.

Edited May 23, 2020 by smileless

[praetarius5018 111]

7 hours ago, hmsong said:

For 2.0, perhaps you can give someone Detect ability.  There is a slot, and there is animation.  Why not use it?

Already done years ago.

[praetarius5018 111]

how Angela could look next time:

base:        8/8/8/12/11/10
spell list:
Fireball (7 INT), Diamond Missile (9 INT), Airblast (11 INT), Ice Smash (12 INT)

Sorceress:    14/14/14/17/17/16
spell list:
Airblast* (13 INT), Ice Smash* (14 INT), Fireball* (15 INT), Diamond Missile* (16 INT)
Evil Gate (12 PIE), Holy Ball (14 PIE)

Delvar:        13/13/14/18/16/15
spell list:
Thunderstorm (13 INT, replaces Airblast), Mega Splash (14 INT, replaces Ice Smash)
Explode (15 INT, replaces Fireball), Earth Quake (16 INT, replaces Diamond Missile)

Grand Divina:    30/29/28/32/32/30
spell list:
Fireball*, Diamond Missile*, Airblast*, Ice Smash*
Holy Ball* (18 PIE), Tinkle Rain (20 PIE), Heal Light (21 PIE)
Speed Up (17 LUCK), Evil Gate* (18 LUCK), Sleep Flower (20 LUCK)
Transshape (18 INT), Double Spell* (20 INT)

Arch Mage:    29/30/29/31/31/31
spell list:
Earth Quake* (18 INT, replaces Diamond Missile), Thunderstorm* (19 INT, replaces Airblast)
Mega Splash* (20 INT, replaces Ice Smash), Explode* (21 INT, replaces Fireball)
Saint Beam* (19 PIE, replaces Holy Ball), Dark Force* (20 PIE, replaces Evil Gate), Mind Down (22 PIE)
Body Change (17 LUCK), Aura Wave (19 LUCK)
Power Down (15 AGL), Anti-Magic (17 AGL), Rainbow Dust* (20 AGL)

Rune Master:    28/28/30/32/30/30
spell list:
Thunderstorm* (15 AGL), Stun Wind (18 AGL), Thunder Saber* (21 AGL)
Earth Quake* (16 LUCK), Diamond Saber* (19 LUCK), Stone Cloud (22 LUCK)
Mega Splash* (17 PIE), Ice Saber* (20 PIE), Cold Blaze (23 PIE)
Explode* (19 INT), Blaze Wall (22 INT), Flame Saber* (25 INT)

Magus:        29/29/29/33/29/29
spell list:
Earth Quake* (19 INT), Thunderstorm* (20 INT), Mega Splash* (21 INT), Explode* (22 INT), Rainbow Dust* (24 INT)
Dark Force* (17 PIE), Lunatic (18 PIE), Death Spell (20 PIE)
Power Up (16 LUCK), Mind Up^ (18 LUCK), Poison Bubble (20 LUCK), Ancient* (22 LUCK)

 

All classes have potentially 12 spells but can only keep 10.
If for some reason you have already 10 spells and the next would be an upgrade/replacement - tough luck.
Once the 10th slot is filled that spell learning is finished.

Edited May 23, 2020 by praetarius5018

[rpschamp 0]

4 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

All classes have potentially 12 spells but can only keep 10.
If for some reason you have already 10 spells and the next would be an upgrade/replacement - tough luck.
Once the 10th slot is filled that spell learning is finished.

Very interesting; I like the stat-based series approach. Do you plan something similar for the other characters? Grand Divina will have to be careful to get that multi-target Evil Gate!

Looks good!

EDIT: Any changes to the final weapons? Or the status effects of Rune Master's spells? More generally, are you sticking with the plan to keep Snowman and Petrify exclusive to Rune Master (weapons included)?

Edited May 23, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

21 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Very interesting; I like the stat-based series approach. Do you plan something similar for the other characters?

Plan, yes. Duran&Kevin will be problematic since they barely know any spells and there is little that is thematically fitting, so giving their classes a spell choice is difficult..

I also may or may not take this opportunity to stealth nerf light Lise *cough*

21 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

EDIT: Any changes to the final weapons? Or the status effects of Rune Master's spells? More generally, are you sticking with the plan to keep Snowman and Petrify exclusive to Rune Master (weapons included)?

I see no need to adjust final weapons at this point.
Considering the buggy nature of snowman I want to keep it as limited as it is.
Considering the game breaking nature of petrify, same.

Edited May 23, 2020 by praetarius5018

[rpschamp 0]

11 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Considering the buggy nature of snowman I want to keep it as limited as it is.
Considering the game breaking nature of petrify, same.

I have come to agree with you. Rune Master should keep her niche; giving Snowman to Vanadis would corrupt that.

11 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I also may or may not take this opportunity to stealth nerf light Lise *cough*

This may be the most controversial idea of the topic yet. So much for stealth! You have my support though.

I think as long as there is an option for at least one of the Light Lises to learn her four stat buffs, there will not be mass revolt.

Very interested to see your ideas on balancing Vanadis and Star Lancer; the latter may have become a bit too dominant.

Edited May 23, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

2 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

This may be the most controversial idea of the topic yet. So much for stealth! You have my support though.

I think as long as there is an option for at least one of the Light Lises to learn her four stat buffs, there will not be mass revolt.

She had 7 or 9 spells, so under the 10 spell cap nothing would change.
Now I fill in some gaps. So you have to sacrifice 2 spells.

So consider this setup (still working on it):

Valkyrie:    17/16/16/15/16/14
Protect Up (11 PIE), Speed Up (13 PIE)
Airblast (12 INT)

Starlancer:    32/30/30/30/30/30
Dark Saber (18 STR), Saint Saber (20 STR), Power Up* (23 STR)
Energy Ball (17 AGL), Ice Smash* (18 AGL), Speed Up* (20 AGL)
Airblast* (17 INT), Fireball* (19 INT), Mind Up* (22 INT)
Marduke* (18 PIE), Aura Wave (20 PIE), Def Up* (23 PIE)

No matter what you do, at best you get 2 ST buffs (def up, speed up) and 2 MT buffs or 3 MTs and lose one buff completely.

Assuming you go for power up and then mind up you already have 8 spell slots filled if you went out of your way to not pick up airblast as valk.
Say you pick marduke and aura wave, that's then all 10 slots so def up won't upgrade.

In short the char/class discussion topic will have field days here.

[rpschamp 0]

First, I love the idea of putting Angela's level 1 spells on Lise. They're great spells and need more exposure, and Lise is a great option as the Jill-of-all-trades. (This basically covers the motivation behind my "magic sword" idea.)

Second, I can see why you "finalized" Angela first. Her relatively organized spell sets make her design options the most straightforward.

Third:

19 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

In short the char/class discussion topic will have field days here.

Is this not the ultimate goal?

Joking aside, if this becomes too rich, will you be able to resist doing a 3.0? (At least I can see the potential need for a 2.X to correct some problem that arises, since you're making so many changes here.)

Finally, off topic, do you still have a set of accessories open, or do you have plans to fill those in already?

Edited May 23, 2020 by rpschamp