praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

235 posts in this topic

there are a few problems with this game, and i am going to compare it to pokemon because you added types into this game like pokemon.  both these can be fixed relatively easily and are related.  these problems are less noticeable on normal, what I have been playing 1 year ago, and real apparent on hard what I am playing now.

first is the gameplay process.  you go into battle, you buff or you debuff, or both.  you attack according to the strength and weakness chart, finish and heal up.  sounds exactly like pokemon?  ye.  that is not a exactly a big problem for pokemon, mainly because they have in some ways fixed it, so that battling it just simply flows along.   in SD3 that combat is not currently designed like that, we have to consult a document file outside the game to be performing at our best, and this switching between the game screen to the document screen outside becomes a chore, it slows down the flow of combat and it is an extra step to drain our energy as well as break our game immersion, while in pokemon everything you need to know is given inside the actual game.  in pokemon we have "IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE" or "IT'S NOT VERY EFFECTIVE" or "IT HAD NO EFFECT".  With those simple 3 messages a first time player in that game will eventually memorize the entire type chart simply from knowing the unit's type and attack's type, assuming the player is literate and paying attention.  SD3 is flawed, glitchy and feels rushed, you were patching the vanilla game I am sure you already knew this, it is still an amazing game. 

The second problem is documentation.  The weapons having extra properties also have the same problem, they were simple weak to strong power progression, so adding extra text boxes for weapon descriptions in the shop was not needed, if it was new it was worth the cash in vanilla.  This is not something you can help with and i get that, we have to consult the document file outside the game.  the current equipment document is not set up to be easy to read, for me, knowing what each shop in each city is selling for ALL characters is far more useful to me than knowing what the whole list of equipment for one character is, for example to check the list for Kevin's weapons in Forcena I need to scroll down to the Kevin section, find the city, then to check Lisa's I have to repeat the process, when having a "Forcena" section, the entire stock listed there, weapons armor accessories and all for each character would be far more useful and easier to use.  The boss documentation is also incomplete, I am currently reading the file from patch v1042 and Landumber's weakness is listed as "stereotype", which is completely useless information.

For fixing this I propose two things.  First you can give it some time and redesign the document and group all items by city and by character on another page/tab and place all the important information in the first few columns/lines and release this with your next patch update.  I could also do that if you would like but that will wait until when I return home in around 5 weeks, and if I do it I am only including the important information, things like price/hitrate/critbonus (mostly the numerical mumbo-jumbo) I would just leave out.  The boss documentation i cannot help you with.  knowing that Landumber's weakness is "stereotype" is completely useless to me.

The second fix I suggest you consider simplifying the type chart to some degree, this might just be years of conditioning from pokemon but I never got why the cockatrice was weak to water but not thunder or earth.  maybe for example all the units using the same sprite recolored could have 1 or 2 common weakness and one more weakness  and strength that distinguishes it from its recolored variation?  Also to help with the combat flow, change the damage numbers according to strength and weaknesses.  "super effective" would be red numbers, neutral would be yellow, not effective purple?  healing and magic steal green for both allies and enemies, reflect blue? crits white?  whatever it is, to me the super effective/not effective color split is the most important and useful change that can be done for the player.  okay now i apply earth saber, oh look red numbers on target 1 and purple on target 2, great now i will remember that for the next time.  To not improve the game combat flow would be turning a singleplayer classic into more of a chore and losing game immersion than a grindy MMORPG game where types are taken out and buffs debuffs and power only matters.  what do you think? 

 

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On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

there are a few problems with this game, and i am going to compare it to pokemon because you added types into this game like pokemon.

what types? there are none.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

in SD3 that combat is not currently designed like that, we have to consult a document file outside the game to be performing at our best, and this switching between the game screen to the document screen outside becomes a chore, it slows down the flow of combat and it is an extra step to drain our energy as well as break our game immersion, while in pokemon everything you need to know is given inside the actual game.  in pokemon we have "IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE" or "IT'S NOT VERY EFFECTIVE" or "IT HAD NO EFFECT".  With those simple 3 messages a first time player in that game will eventually memorize the entire type chart simply from knowing the unit's type and attack's type, assuming the player is literate and paying attention.  SD3 is flawed, glitchy and feels rushed, you were patching the vanilla game I am sure you already knew this, it is still an amazing game.

sorry, but this comparison is completely ass-backwards.
how is it harder to learn 100 types over 8 elements than 700 with 18 elements!??
you can/have to look up a type chart in both cases.

in pokemon you have potentially over 700 monster types for which you'd have to either learn or look up their types. and you absolutely MUST follow those types AND learn a type chart.

here you have only about 100 monster types. there is NO type chart you have to learn. every monster has their own "type logic". plus you have several non-elemental options.
"it's not very effective, the opponent still died in one hit because of move power, STAB, EV, genes and other crap" vs "wrong type, you deal 0/1 damage, the end", sorry but the later is more consistent.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

The boss documentation is also incomplete, I am currently reading the file from patch v1042 and Landumber's weakness is listed as "stereotype", which is completely useless information.

How so?
What is the stereotype of a rock-like enemy in gaming? Maybe unreasonable resistant to (physical) attacks? Let's equate that to physical immunity here.
What can you do in the scope of this hack then? Anti-magic?

These hints are not meant as a straight forward cheat sheet. I mean if I gave you every solution to this game there'd be no game left - boring.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

the current equipment document is not set up to be easy to read, for me, knowing what each shop in each city is selling for ALL characters is far more useful to me than knowing what the whole list of equipment for one character is, for example to check the list for Kevin's weapons in Forcena I need to scroll down to the Kevin section, find the city, then to check Lisa's I have to repeat the process, when having a "Forcena" section, the entire stock listed there, weapons armor accessories and all for each character would be far more useful and easier to use.

outside of the seed-only weapons, all items are identical across characters. the weapon in forcena for Duran has the exact same properties as the one for Hawk.
the only difference is the name and who can equip it.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

The second fix I suggest you consider simplifying the type chart to some degree, this might just be years of conditioning from pokemon but I never got why the cockatrice was weak to water but not thunder or earth.

There is no type chart.
Each enemy type has a unique setup of elemental strength/weaknesses, according to what I thought made sense - and a few diviations to make certain elements not universally dominant, I'm looking at you holy and fire.
Cockatrice is not weak to earth because it can petrify others. It is not weak to air because it can evolve into a bird which would be massively unfair when you start casting an air spell while it is a cockatrice but finish casting when it has evolved into its Cockabird form which is immune to air. I had about 5 enemies weak to ice at the time and 12+ weak to fire, and deep frozen beings have a hard time to "evolve" or adapt to life changes.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

Also to help with the combat flow, change the damage numbers according to strength and weaknesses.  "super effective" would be red numbers, neutral would be yellow, not effective purple?  healing and magic steal green for both allies and enemies, reflect blue? crits white?  whatever it is, to me the super effective/not effective color split is the most important and useful change that can be done for the player.

The general idea is ok but it can't be done.
The most stupid reason: the game only has 4 colors for such text popups (yellow, green, red, purple). I tried the "5th" color and got a screen full of rainbows spit at me.
The second stupid reason: there's a big disjunction between where the damage is calculated (start of a swing for all enemies that are "currently close enough but might not be anymore when the attack finishes") and where the popup happens. The gap is so big that the game doesn't even know yet if the attack actually hits the target.
It just throws the potential damage number on a per-character pile.
For the current crit/lv1 tech indicator this is a bit different because I still know when the hit happens who is currently attacking (for Lv1 tech) or what "kind" of attack it was (a crit has a bit different routine than regular)

Plus it'd be impossible to show at the same time whether a hit was a crit or effective. And there is no other indicator for crits except higher damage.

Also it'd be yet another chart you'd have to study: "what did purple numbers with green border and white dots mean again?"

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Hello! I'm a big fan of this mod and have been for a while, and I'm especially a HUGE fan of the relatively recent addition of "Hold X during a spell title to skip the animation." It's a great solution to the emphasis on spell and buff usage for this mod and for an action game with so many flashy and long spell animations!

Coincidentally, when I used to play the game as a kid, I would always make a party without casters not only because physical attacks were so much better / magic was countered / Hawk and Kevin were my jam, but because casting all the time made the game feel slower!  Something I wish more games would consider when making animations you see a lot.  How long they take and how much they interrupt the flow. Not just RPGs, either!

Anyway, Mr. Praetarius, my most recent play I've been using Lord, Archmage and Dervish on hard, figuring I could avoid taking mind up and power up by careful use of the "Dragon's Mail" tier armor on bosses I'd need the buffs, the ones that "change buff effects into debuffs and vice versa".

However, I found that they don't actually change the (de)buffs applied to the character wearing the armor, but rather they change the buff the character casts themselves, which I think might be unintended.  I know the armor is actually functioning this way because when Angela casts power down on an enemy while wearing the Dreamdevil Coat, the message "Attack power up" appears, and when when Dolan uses Spiral Moon, everyone's max hp is lowered.

My reasoning:

An attack that damages and debuffs (like Icicle or Demon Breath) is tougher to recover from than just one that damages, so having it buff your stats instead is a strong resource saving tool. This was meant to be offset by the armor tier's light and light physical/magic defense. In addition, it would allow you to have one character with all (de)buffs (any Lise class) handle all stat effects for your team and your enemy.

Currently, there's no benefit to the current armors that I can see other than allowing you to have one character buff your team while another with the exact same spells debuffs enemies, in case you happened to pick two characters with the same (de)buffs as each other. 

If the intention was purely to allow you to have more variety in which classes you can build your team with and reach more buff coverage, might I suggest giving the armor more defense since then it's just shoring up a weakness (not enough team variety) instead of giving you a strength?

 

Also, Lord's speed down isn't marked as multi-target in the classes.txt but functions as such in game.

 

Thank you for all the good times!

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47 minutes ago, Larc said:

However, I found that they don't actually change the (de)buffs applied to the character wearing the armor, but rather they change the buff the character casts themselves, which I think might be unintended.

No, that is the intended effect.
The alternative would have not worked with black curse and messed up spell learning.

That's why the effect reads as "change buff effects into debuffs and vice versa" and not just "exchanges buff spells with equivalent debuff spells"

55 minutes ago, Larc said:

Currently, there's no benefit to the current armors that I can see other than allowing you to have one character buff your team while another with the exact same spells debuffs enemies, in case you happened to pick two characters with the same (de)buffs as each other.

The intent was stuff like that, especially to have more options for a "full buff" char that isn't yet again for the billionst time light Lise.

44 minutes ago, Larc said:

Also, Lord's speed down isn't marked as multi-target in the classes.txt but functions as such in game.

And now the big question is which is the typo? in the txt or in the ips?

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On 1/28/2018 at 10:55 AM, praetarius5018 said:

And now the big question is which is the typo? in the txt or in the ips?

I for sure couldn't presume to know which you intended!

On 1/28/2018 at 10:55 AM, praetarius5018 said:

The alternative would have not worked with black curse and messed up spell learning.

That sounds interesting. So black curse cast onto a character wearing the armor I imagined (granting the target all buffs instead of all debuffs) would mess with the program in some way?

And having the armor equipped at all would cause characters to learn the wrong spells?

How does that happen?

On 1/28/2018 at 10:55 AM, praetarius5018 said:

The intent was stuff like that, especially to have more options for a "full buff" char that isn't yet again for the billionst time light Lise.

My mistake.  But if that was your intention, I do stand by the idea that the armor should be on par with the +healing armor's defenses if "medium" is considered middle of the road because it seems like an unnecessary cost for choosing flexibility in party makeup instead of flexibility in party aptitude.

Anyway, I'm guessing you're probably on other projects by now and in the wide scheme stuff like this (read: some internet nobody's criticism (read: blatant opinion)) doesn't really add or subtract from what you've created very much, so thanks again for the excellent mod and always taking the time to reply to everyone.

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14 hours ago, Larc said:

That sounds interesting. So black curse cast onto a character wearing the armor I imagined (granting the target all buffs instead of all debuffs) would mess with the program in some way?

And having the armor equipped at all would cause characters to learn the wrong spells?

The game has potential counterparts for power up in power down, etc, but there is no opposite of black curse. That's what I meant.

Well, the game uses the same function to "get" the spells for your ring menu and for checking against already learned spells;
if I'd really replace power up with power down, on the next level up you'd learn power up again and the armor would change that then to a second power down, repeat until you know 12 times the same spell. Not a good end point for characters that have 12 spells already.

14 hours ago, Larc said:

My mistake.  But if that was your intention, I do stand by the idea that the armor should be on par with the +healing armor's defenses if "medium" is considered middle of the road because it seems like an unnecessary cost for choosing flexibility in party makeup instead of flexibility in party aptitude.

This can go either way; I think that if you'd choose the inversion armor it grants you a real advantage over just using the "boring" wendel armor (which was supposed to be the point of reference for an "average" armor).

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Hey, first of all absolutely well done praetarius! Well thought out, rounded and up to the point I played, well balanced. You did it! You spoiled the vanilla game for me: if they were to release it on the switch on the bugged state it was then, I wouldn't and couldn't touch it. Great job!

Is there any other patch you would recommend / have worked on for a SNES jrpg (or game)?

One other question. I can't seem to find the secret shop, I think I must be blind. Any hint more specific than the one in the readme?

Keep up the good work!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mck said:

Is there any other patch you would recommend / have worked on for a SNES jrpg (or game)?

What I'd recommend?
Check the download section here. That's as biased an answer as you'll get from me.

What I've personally created?

My current project is a FF5 hack though that is in no playable state right now.

1 hour ago, Mck said:

One other question. I can't seem to find the secret shop, I think I must be blind. Any hint more specific than the one in the readme?

Desert town. Dude doesn't look like the regular traders.

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

 

 

Thank you, I'll check it out later, after Sin.

 

12 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

My current project is a FF5 hack though that is in no playable state right now.

How far along is development?

 

12 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

Desert town. Dude doesn't look like the regular traders.

Once again thanks. I would not have looked there. Too near to a hub.

One other thing: can you target enemies with heal light? Tried it and didn't work, but then again perhaps I messed it up. You mention that it hurts undead in the support files.

Edited by Mck
Typo
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1 hour ago, Mck said:

One other thing: can you target enemies with heal light? Tried it and didn't work, but then again perhaps I messed it up. You mention that it hurts undead in the support files.

hold Y when selecting the spell, not when selecting the target

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