praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

258 posts in this topic

there are a few problems with this game, and i am going to compare it to pokemon because you added types into this game like pokemon.  both these can be fixed relatively easily and are related.  these problems are less noticeable on normal, what I have been playing 1 year ago, and real apparent on hard what I am playing now.

first is the gameplay process.  you go into battle, you buff or you debuff, or both.  you attack according to the strength and weakness chart, finish and heal up.  sounds exactly like pokemon?  ye.  that is not a exactly a big problem for pokemon, mainly because they have in some ways fixed it, so that battling it just simply flows along.   in SD3 that combat is not currently designed like that, we have to consult a document file outside the game to be performing at our best, and this switching between the game screen to the document screen outside becomes a chore, it slows down the flow of combat and it is an extra step to drain our energy as well as break our game immersion, while in pokemon everything you need to know is given inside the actual game.  in pokemon we have "IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE" or "IT'S NOT VERY EFFECTIVE" or "IT HAD NO EFFECT".  With those simple 3 messages a first time player in that game will eventually memorize the entire type chart simply from knowing the unit's type and attack's type, assuming the player is literate and paying attention.  SD3 is flawed, glitchy and feels rushed, you were patching the vanilla game I am sure you already knew this, it is still an amazing game. 

The second problem is documentation.  The weapons having extra properties also have the same problem, they were simple weak to strong power progression, so adding extra text boxes for weapon descriptions in the shop was not needed, if it was new it was worth the cash in vanilla.  This is not something you can help with and i get that, we have to consult the document file outside the game.  the current equipment document is not set up to be easy to read, for me, knowing what each shop in each city is selling for ALL characters is far more useful to me than knowing what the whole list of equipment for one character is, for example to check the list for Kevin's weapons in Forcena I need to scroll down to the Kevin section, find the city, then to check Lisa's I have to repeat the process, when having a "Forcena" section, the entire stock listed there, weapons armor accessories and all for each character would be far more useful and easier to use.  The boss documentation is also incomplete, I am currently reading the file from patch v1042 and Landumber's weakness is listed as "stereotype", which is completely useless information.

For fixing this I propose two things.  First you can give it some time and redesign the document and group all items by city and by character on another page/tab and place all the important information in the first few columns/lines and release this with your next patch update.  I could also do that if you would like but that will wait until when I return home in around 5 weeks, and if I do it I am only including the important information, things like price/hitrate/critbonus (mostly the numerical mumbo-jumbo) I would just leave out.  The boss documentation i cannot help you with.  knowing that Landumber's weakness is "stereotype" is completely useless to me.

The second fix I suggest you consider simplifying the type chart to some degree, this might just be years of conditioning from pokemon but I never got why the cockatrice was weak to water but not thunder or earth.  maybe for example all the units using the same sprite recolored could have 1 or 2 common weakness and one more weakness  and strength that distinguishes it from its recolored variation?  Also to help with the combat flow, change the damage numbers according to strength and weaknesses.  "super effective" would be red numbers, neutral would be yellow, not effective purple?  healing and magic steal green for both allies and enemies, reflect blue? crits white?  whatever it is, to me the super effective/not effective color split is the most important and useful change that can be done for the player.  okay now i apply earth saber, oh look red numbers on target 1 and purple on target 2, great now i will remember that for the next time.  To not improve the game combat flow would be turning a singleplayer classic into more of a chore and losing game immersion than a grindy MMORPG game where types are taken out and buffs debuffs and power only matters.  what do you think? 

 

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On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

there are a few problems with this game, and i am going to compare it to pokemon because you added types into this game like pokemon.

what types? there are none.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

in SD3 that combat is not currently designed like that, we have to consult a document file outside the game to be performing at our best, and this switching between the game screen to the document screen outside becomes a chore, it slows down the flow of combat and it is an extra step to drain our energy as well as break our game immersion, while in pokemon everything you need to know is given inside the actual game.  in pokemon we have "IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE" or "IT'S NOT VERY EFFECTIVE" or "IT HAD NO EFFECT".  With those simple 3 messages a first time player in that game will eventually memorize the entire type chart simply from knowing the unit's type and attack's type, assuming the player is literate and paying attention.  SD3 is flawed, glitchy and feels rushed, you were patching the vanilla game I am sure you already knew this, it is still an amazing game.

sorry, but this comparison is completely ass-backwards.
how is it harder to learn 100 types over 8 elements than 700 with 18 elements!??
you can/have to look up a type chart in both cases.

in pokemon you have potentially over 700 monster types for which you'd have to either learn or look up their types. and you absolutely MUST follow those types AND learn a type chart.

here you have only about 100 monster types. there is NO type chart you have to learn. every monster has their own "type logic". plus you have several non-elemental options.
"it's not very effective, the opponent still died in one hit because of move power, STAB, EV, genes and other crap" vs "wrong type, you deal 0/1 damage, the end", sorry but the later is more consistent.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

The boss documentation is also incomplete, I am currently reading the file from patch v1042 and Landumber's weakness is listed as "stereotype", which is completely useless information.

How so?
What is the stereotype of a rock-like enemy in gaming? Maybe unreasonable resistant to (physical) attacks? Let's equate that to physical immunity here.
What can you do in the scope of this hack then? Anti-magic?

These hints are not meant as a straight forward cheat sheet. I mean if I gave you every solution to this game there'd be no game left - boring.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

the current equipment document is not set up to be easy to read, for me, knowing what each shop in each city is selling for ALL characters is far more useful to me than knowing what the whole list of equipment for one character is, for example to check the list for Kevin's weapons in Forcena I need to scroll down to the Kevin section, find the city, then to check Lisa's I have to repeat the process, when having a "Forcena" section, the entire stock listed there, weapons armor accessories and all for each character would be far more useful and easier to use.

outside of the seed-only weapons, all items are identical across characters. the weapon in forcena for Duran has the exact same properties as the one for Hawk.
the only difference is the name and who can equip it.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

The second fix I suggest you consider simplifying the type chart to some degree, this might just be years of conditioning from pokemon but I never got why the cockatrice was weak to water but not thunder or earth.

There is no type chart.
Each enemy type has a unique setup of elemental strength/weaknesses, according to what I thought made sense - and a few diviations to make certain elements not universally dominant, I'm looking at you holy and fire.
Cockatrice is not weak to earth because it can petrify others. It is not weak to air because it can evolve into a bird which would be massively unfair when you start casting an air spell while it is a cockatrice but finish casting when it has evolved into its Cockabird form which is immune to air. I had about 5 enemies weak to ice at the time and 12+ weak to fire, and deep frozen beings have a hard time to "evolve" or adapt to life changes.

On 19.1.2018 at 2:59 AM, Caliber70 said:

Also to help with the combat flow, change the damage numbers according to strength and weaknesses.  "super effective" would be red numbers, neutral would be yellow, not effective purple?  healing and magic steal green for both allies and enemies, reflect blue? crits white?  whatever it is, to me the super effective/not effective color split is the most important and useful change that can be done for the player.

The general idea is ok but it can't be done.
The most stupid reason: the game only has 4 colors for such text popups (yellow, green, red, purple). I tried the "5th" color and got a screen full of rainbows spit at me.
The second stupid reason: there's a big disjunction between where the damage is calculated (start of a swing for all enemies that are "currently close enough but might not be anymore when the attack finishes") and where the popup happens. The gap is so big that the game doesn't even know yet if the attack actually hits the target.
It just throws the potential damage number on a per-character pile.
For the current crit/lv1 tech indicator this is a bit different because I still know when the hit happens who is currently attacking (for Lv1 tech) or what "kind" of attack it was (a crit has a bit different routine than regular)

Plus it'd be impossible to show at the same time whether a hit was a crit or effective. And there is no other indicator for crits except higher damage.

Also it'd be yet another chart you'd have to study: "what did purple numbers with green border and white dots mean again?"

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Hello! I'm a big fan of this mod and have been for a while, and I'm especially a HUGE fan of the relatively recent addition of "Hold X during a spell title to skip the animation." It's a great solution to the emphasis on spell and buff usage for this mod and for an action game with so many flashy and long spell animations!

Coincidentally, when I used to play the game as a kid, I would always make a party without casters not only because physical attacks were so much better / magic was countered / Hawk and Kevin were my jam, but because casting all the time made the game feel slower!  Something I wish more games would consider when making animations you see a lot.  How long they take and how much they interrupt the flow. Not just RPGs, either!

Anyway, Mr. Praetarius, my most recent play I've been using Lord, Archmage and Dervish on hard, figuring I could avoid taking mind up and power up by careful use of the "Dragon's Mail" tier armor on bosses I'd need the buffs, the ones that "change buff effects into debuffs and vice versa".

However, I found that they don't actually change the (de)buffs applied to the character wearing the armor, but rather they change the buff the character casts themselves, which I think might be unintended.  I know the armor is actually functioning this way because when Angela casts power down on an enemy while wearing the Dreamdevil Coat, the message "Attack power up" appears, and when when Dolan uses Spiral Moon, everyone's max hp is lowered.

My reasoning:

An attack that damages and debuffs (like Icicle or Demon Breath) is tougher to recover from than just one that damages, so having it buff your stats instead is a strong resource saving tool. This was meant to be offset by the armor tier's light and light physical/magic defense. In addition, it would allow you to have one character with all (de)buffs (any Lise class) handle all stat effects for your team and your enemy.

Currently, there's no benefit to the current armors that I can see other than allowing you to have one character buff your team while another with the exact same spells debuffs enemies, in case you happened to pick two characters with the same (de)buffs as each other. 

If the intention was purely to allow you to have more variety in which classes you can build your team with and reach more buff coverage, might I suggest giving the armor more defense since then it's just shoring up a weakness (not enough team variety) instead of giving you a strength?

 

Also, Lord's speed down isn't marked as multi-target in the classes.txt but functions as such in game.

 

Thank you for all the good times!

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47 minutes ago, Larc said:

However, I found that they don't actually change the (de)buffs applied to the character wearing the armor, but rather they change the buff the character casts themselves, which I think might be unintended.

No, that is the intended effect.
The alternative would have not worked with black curse and messed up spell learning.

That's why the effect reads as "change buff effects into debuffs and vice versa" and not just "exchanges buff spells with equivalent debuff spells"

55 minutes ago, Larc said:

Currently, there's no benefit to the current armors that I can see other than allowing you to have one character buff your team while another with the exact same spells debuffs enemies, in case you happened to pick two characters with the same (de)buffs as each other.

The intent was stuff like that, especially to have more options for a "full buff" char that isn't yet again for the billionst time light Lise.

44 minutes ago, Larc said:

Also, Lord's speed down isn't marked as multi-target in the classes.txt but functions as such in game.

And now the big question is which is the typo? in the txt or in the ips?

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On 1/28/2018 at 10:55 AM, praetarius5018 said:

And now the big question is which is the typo? in the txt or in the ips?

I for sure couldn't presume to know which you intended!

On 1/28/2018 at 10:55 AM, praetarius5018 said:

The alternative would have not worked with black curse and messed up spell learning.

That sounds interesting. So black curse cast onto a character wearing the armor I imagined (granting the target all buffs instead of all debuffs) would mess with the program in some way?

And having the armor equipped at all would cause characters to learn the wrong spells?

How does that happen?

On 1/28/2018 at 10:55 AM, praetarius5018 said:

The intent was stuff like that, especially to have more options for a "full buff" char that isn't yet again for the billionst time light Lise.

My mistake.  But if that was your intention, I do stand by the idea that the armor should be on par with the +healing armor's defenses if "medium" is considered middle of the road because it seems like an unnecessary cost for choosing flexibility in party makeup instead of flexibility in party aptitude.

Anyway, I'm guessing you're probably on other projects by now and in the wide scheme stuff like this (read: some internet nobody's criticism (read: blatant opinion)) doesn't really add or subtract from what you've created very much, so thanks again for the excellent mod and always taking the time to reply to everyone.

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14 hours ago, Larc said:

That sounds interesting. So black curse cast onto a character wearing the armor I imagined (granting the target all buffs instead of all debuffs) would mess with the program in some way?

And having the armor equipped at all would cause characters to learn the wrong spells?

The game has potential counterparts for power up in power down, etc, but there is no opposite of black curse. That's what I meant.

Well, the game uses the same function to "get" the spells for your ring menu and for checking against already learned spells;
if I'd really replace power up with power down, on the next level up you'd learn power up again and the armor would change that then to a second power down, repeat until you know 12 times the same spell. Not a good end point for characters that have 12 spells already.

14 hours ago, Larc said:

My mistake.  But if that was your intention, I do stand by the idea that the armor should be on par with the +healing armor's defenses if "medium" is considered middle of the road because it seems like an unnecessary cost for choosing flexibility in party makeup instead of flexibility in party aptitude.

This can go either way; I think that if you'd choose the inversion armor it grants you a real advantage over just using the "boring" wendel armor (which was supposed to be the point of reference for an "average" armor).

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Hey, first of all absolutely well done praetarius! Well thought out, rounded and up to the point I played, well balanced. You did it! You spoiled the vanilla game for me: if they were to release it on the switch on the bugged state it was then, I wouldn't and couldn't touch it. Great job!

Is there any other patch you would recommend / have worked on for a SNES jrpg (or game)?

One other question. I can't seem to find the secret shop, I think I must be blind. Any hint more specific than the one in the readme?

Keep up the good work!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mck said:

Is there any other patch you would recommend / have worked on for a SNES jrpg (or game)?

What I'd recommend?
Check the download section here. That's as biased an answer as you'll get from me.

What I've personally created?

My current project is a FF5 hack though that is in no playable state right now.

1 hour ago, Mck said:

One other question. I can't seem to find the secret shop, I think I must be blind. Any hint more specific than the one in the readme?

Desert town. Dude doesn't look like the regular traders.

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

 

 

Thank you, I'll check it out later, after Sin.

 

12 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

My current project is a FF5 hack though that is in no playable state right now.

How far along is development?

 

12 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

Desert town. Dude doesn't look like the regular traders.

Once again thanks. I would not have looked there. Too near to a hub.

One other thing: can you target enemies with heal light? Tried it and didn't work, but then again perhaps I messed it up. You mention that it hurts undead in the support files.

Edited by Mck
Typo
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1 hour ago, Mck said:

One other thing: can you target enemies with heal light? Tried it and didn't work, but then again perhaps I messed it up. You mention that it hurts undead in the support files.

hold Y when selecting the spell, not when selecting the target

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I've spent most of this mod feeling like I'm playing it wrong. Right now I'm running Duran/Carlie/Angela as Paladin/Magus/Sage on the default difficulty and I'm playing by myself; I played the original like ten years ago so this may as well be a brand new thing for me and I picked my party because they reminded me of the party in Secret of Mana. The game's handed my ass to me several times in various ways. For instance: 

-my physical attackers don't seem to hit a lot. Like a lot a lot. I put out a lot of swings but like half of them miss, if I'm lucky. I've tended toward weapons with high hit rate (mostly the broadsword, although I recently switched to the silver blade when it became available), but the tradeoff there is that I don't seem to be cresting 20 with any individual physical hit, and this is against physical neutral creatures. If I match their element with a saber I might get up to 30-ish on a normal attack, with a strong attack getting up to 40. Maybe this was my mistake for not immediately maxing Dex and using a falchion instead but it's kind of disheartening.

-apparently the way I picked my party in the beginning meant I only had two characters (Duran and Carlie) for Full Metal Haggar and I replayed that fight so many times I was afraid I simply couldn't win the damage race and would have to restart. At the end of the day I used basically all the consumables I had managed to scrape together, including two bulette's scales I'd stumbled into because I happen to like going after Ogre Boxes whenever I got treasure and the panel was there. 

-my strategy for the vast majority of boss fights has basically been to make sure I'm carrying around a full stack of candies (and later chocolates) and heal whenever anybody's below max so I don't get exploded by whatever burst damage counter limit break thing thing the boss has in its pocket. Not only does this mean my whole party's contracted diabetes, it's kind of impacted the playability of the game, because it starts feeling a lot less like an action RPG and more like a weird turn-based one. Most of my fights have been with my party being equal level to the boss and I've only sat down and grinded a couple of times. If I'm "supposed" to be fighting them at a higher level than they are, then I'll do it, but that's going to run out eventually because I'm pretty sure I'll be hitting cap at the rate I'm going before the last couple of bosses. 

-Money's tight. Clearly at least part of this is that I'm personally buying up every country's supply of sweets, but weapons etc. are damn expensive and that's bad for my collector tendencies. Even despite that, though, it's odd that the weapons are all supposed to be balanced with each other in a rough sense, yet each "tier" seems to double or triple in price from the previous one. It certainly doesn't feel like the amount of money I'm getting from higher level monsters is increasing at a similar rate. Also, I haven't been able to cover buffs for everything given my party layout; this has specifically stung me in the butt whenever something pulls out a dex debuff, since none of my characters have the corresponding buff. Stardust Herbs make that okay if that's what they lead off with, but if I've put any of the buffs I do have on before they hit me then using the herb will waste all of them. There are items to fix that-in particular I managed to get a bunch of bird scales in Rolante from drops-but if I'm looking to get particular ones I have to spend money on them, and as noted money's tight. 

-I don't know what stacks and what doesn't as far as item properties go. Like, yeah, obviously the numerical increases all work together, but if I stick a Revelation Cane, Bunnydress and White Snow Veil on Angela, do all of those damage boosts stack or not? Experimentally it doesn't seem like they do, but it's hard sometimes seeing what numbers go to what attack the way the game resolves. And does wearing six Beastman Collars actually boost your money gain six times over and it's just that money drops really are just that tiny? I've done that when it was feasible (i.e. when the enemies weren't able to kill me if I wasn't using an accessory layout that gave me actual stat boosts) but it doesn't feel like it makes that much of a difference.

-For the most part I haven't felt like there's been a "only one strategy" for bosses. I've muddled along with the SOP my characters seem capable of (figure out what element the boss is vulnerable to and have Angela spam it and try to keep her from suicidally running into the melee, Carlie threw a lot of Holy Ball but now I have her use sabers and mind up now that she knows them, Duran pushes people around and maybe swings for 20 damage every once in a while and spams candies and chocolates) and made it through more or less intact. There were three boss fights where actually having an AoE nuker felt like a positive (Gildervine, Robots 2: Electric Boogaloo and Sephiroth's Mom) instead of just something I had. But there are two boss fights now that I can't imagine being able to do with anything but a specific gear layout and resultant strategy, given the team members I have. That's the first Bill and Ben fight and now Dolan, the first God-Beast I chose to fight and the current brick wall I've hit. I don't think it's numerically possible to beat Bill and Ben with my team if I don't do basically the opposite of everything that makes sense with two of the characters I have. 

Spoiler

i.e. have them normal attack as much as possible to interrupt the bosses' attacks, with high evade gear on to avoid getting murdered instantly. Because the squishy mages actually hitting people with their stick and weird floppy wannabe morning star thing instead of staying away from where the stabbings are is the only thing they have time to do; if they stand around trying to cast a spell they just get cut to ribbons.

The problem is that I didn't have the gear that enabled that strategy, and you can't leave Rolante once you've acquired Jinn until you beat those two, so I couldn't go get it from where I was. I ended up rolling back to an earlier savestate and making a run to the Dwarf Village and Maia, then doing all that stuff with Tzenker and Genova and them over again. Which kind of damaged my morale having to first figure out how much progress I had to lose (since I didn't know exactly when I got locked out of leaving) and then of course go through that all over again, and even then it was more of a resource blowout than usual. I mean I suppose I could have sat there beating up needlebirds until I had enough money to buy 20 Angel Grails too but that seemed like even more of a trial.

Now with Dolan, I've figured out what I need to do against his moon hadokens and it turns out I lucked into the gear that enables it totally by accident. 

Spoiler

I happened to like spamming level 3 techs so I got a Mistscreen Amulet and the aforementioned Silver Blade and also a Dragon Helm, and it turns out if you use a level 3 tech on Dolan after he does Energy Ball the next hadoken doesn't instantly kill everybody. Of course, between intermittent misses and the fact that he'll just sit there sometimes and not take any damage and then immediately follow that with a hadoken, getting as many tech bars as fast as possible is very important so you can always have it available in time.

The problem in this case is simply losing the damage race. I cast my buffs and spammed my spells and techs and items and went through full stacks of candy/chocolate/grass and the six angel grails and honey drinks I had because I was saving my money trying to buy some neato weapons for a change but it just wouldn't f***ing die. I've increased Carlie's Dex but it still feels like it takes forever for Heal Light to resolve and meanwhile he's Howling and Graviton Pressing and just making everything a f***show. I could do a different item layout but then I wouldn't have room to fit in debuffs so I could actually do damage, and of course it would light all my money on fire. Again. Which is why I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing something else, or if there's something more fundamentally wrong with my playstyle than I thought. Like maybe I prioritized my stats wrong, or maybe it was just a mistake not to have any of Hawk/Kevin/Lise in the first place. I'm really at a loss at what else I can do at this point. (I mean, besides just play an easier mode, but I like getting a chest after every fight even if it's just a candy half the time and also I don't plan on quitting this far in.)

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The default difficulty is hard - and it reads like you'd enjoy it more if you'd lower it at least one stage. Though I can be wrong about that.

As for what stacks: mostly everything that doesn't say a variant of "does not stack with self" or is just an activator (e.g. resistance, MP steal) or removal (e.g. weaknesses)

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Posted (edited)

Um... I'm not entirely certain what just happened, but I suddenly have ~172 million experience points on everybody. I was trying to get some money to buy more grails with and then suddenly I was gaining a level every fight starting around level 55 I think (I'm at 57 now, this just happened). 

Seiken Densetsu 3 patched000.png

Edit so I don't keep double posting, I finally beat that stupid wolfgoat. 

Spoiler

I would genuinely never have assumed Lunatic would work on the God-Beast of the Actual Moon, but I had no ideas left left so I made a Hail Mary. It still took forever but it worked, eventually. Also I think I was getting better dps spamming Rainbow Dust than Ancient because of cast times. 

Further progress edit: Dolan seems to have been the worst of them; I've beaten every other one but the light and darkness ones and haven't had that much of a problem. Usually an expeditionary fight to figure out its thing was enough to figure out what to do. I didn't keep using the glitched save file with all that EXP though, and I didn't get it to happen again when I tried to do similar things. It might just be one of the original game glitches,  I suppose. And I haven't lowered the difficulty. I'm glad I got Dolan out of the way first because I can't imagine fighting him at full power. 

 

Spoiler

Dangaard was probably the easiest. Silence on everybody was probably the worst thing it had. With every screen transition everybody healed back to full and it never did enough damage to kill multiple people before I could recover.

Xan Bie was actually pretty fun, I was amused by the permanent damage that persisted even after Angel Grails. I didn't expect the full heal out of the furnace but it was pretty clear what to do from there. 

I didn't expect to have to cast AntiMagic on Land Umber twice to be able to exploit his weakness, but once I did that he basically stopped doing anything while I spammed attacks on him to the point where I started thinking I'd soft-locked the AI. Not that I let up or anything. The stage though was really hard for some reason, and I had to leave and come back multiple times. Dragons and robots in the same encounter are surprisingly hard (or they were until I figured out you could deathspell the robots) and high-level needlions do a lot of damage very fast.

The worst was probably Fiegmund, whose accelerating DOT was quite rude (in a fun way, though). And his sitting there under the ice where you can't whack him with a sword while your life ticks down created some uncomfortable tension. I suppose I should have bought more throwing items for Duran to have something to do. I didn't expect darkness to be his apparent weakness but I was doing a lot more damage with Dark Force than any other offensive spell I had.

Mispolm was also straightforward: stack status resist gear on Carlie, have her Tinkle Rain a lot. Part of that entailed wearing the zombie clothes, so there was probably a hole in that strategy if she died while the other characters were asleep or whatever, but that didn't happen. One thing that confused me was, while normal attacks inflicted their damage on the attacker too, using level 3 techs didn't trigger that, and Mispolm seemed to take damage twice from them too. And lots of it; one of the damage numbers was always 999 and the second one was something like 780 or  so. Was that intentional? 

 

I stopped by Wendel to get ready to go to the Light place and there's a guy there selling the Pedan weapons. I kind of wish I'd have known that before I went in some of these dungeons because petrify procs would probably have been really useful there, but there's no use crying over spilt milk. 

Edited by Thirdtwin
don't want to spam the topic with me posting five times in a row or whatever.
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Finally beat it today. It was very fun. I'm probably not going to replay at hard mode because it gave me a headache sometimes, but it was worth it the first time at least. If I had to complain about one thing, it would be the pricing of the weapons and armor. 

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I just started a game but am unsure if i patched it correctly. For one, B button doesnt respond right away for running. It lags about 1 second before they run. Also, the Y button doesnt bring up the menu unless i press a directional button + Y. Its been a long time since i played the original game, but i vaguely remember that running in combat took some time to respond, possibly for combat balance. Did the combat mechanics modification from this patch make it so running is delayed out of combat? Just wanna make sure things are running correctly.

EDIT: Sorry nvm lol. I just read the changes_overview and the first couple lines answers all these questions

Edited by wazzur1
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I stopped getting new spells for some reason. My duran has 11 int on gladiator but only learned the first 2 sabers. Same for lise. Hawk got 17 agi but only learned the first 3 spells. According to the text file, they should all have gotten all their spells by now. I even leveled up a few more times after that but still no spells. Im kind of frustrated with the hack in general though. Its basically just a matter of grinding gold to stockpile on healing items and just spamming heals all day on bosses. The equipment balance part is a nice idea but you pretty much have to go back to the excel file everytime you change equip or buy gear.

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58 minutes ago, wazzur1 said:

I stopped getting new spells for some reason. My duran has 11 int on gladiator but only learned the first 2 sabers. Same for lise. Hawk got 17 agi but only learned the first 3 spells. According to the text file, they should all have gotten all their spells by now. I even leveled up a few more times after that but still no spells. Im kind of frustrated with the hack in general though. Its basically just a matter of grinding gold to stockpile on healing items and just spamming heals all day on bosses. The equipment balance part is a nice idea but you pretty much have to go back to the excel file everytime you change equip or buy gear.

You need the corresponding spirits to learn the spells: water spirit for Ice Saber, Mind Up and Water Jutsu, and fire spirit for Fire Saber, Power Up and Fire Jutsu. It was that way in the original game too, though for balance reasons, there are a few spells that are exceptions. The spells tab in the skills_consumables_traps.xls mentions the element of each spell.

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16 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

You need the corresponding spirits to learn the spells: water spirit for Ice Saber, Mind Up and Water Jutsu, and fire spirit for Fire Saber, Power Up and Fire Jutsu. It was that way in the original game too, though for balance reasons, there are a few spells that are exceptions. The spells tab in the skills_consumables_traps.xls mentions the element of each spell.

oh boy, how could i miss such a basic thing.. its just been too long since i played the game haha. As far as the patch is concerned ill try to lower the difficulty setting to see if i can get more enjoyment out of it. Challenge is one thing, but being forced to heal after you take any damage or risk getting wiped  wasnt my idea of fun. The annoyance with item juggling and not displaying item properties in game cant be blamed on the hack. He did what he could with the limitations of the game. You can only add so much complexity to such a stupid equipment system lol.

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Is there a list of spells affected by whitelight ring? Trying to decide on 2nd class changes and this info might affect my decision. Basic sabers and stat magic seems to be affected by it but not the elemental jutsus.

Also, what does it mean by the curse mod on spells. "Additional weapon damage is always shared with 100%"?

Edited by wazzur1
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1 hour ago, wazzur1 said:

Is there a list of spells affected by whitelight ring? Trying to decide on 2nd class changes and this info might affect my decision. Basic sabers and stat magic seems to be affected by it but not the elemental jutsus.

Also, what does it mean by the curse mod on spells. "Additional weapon damage is always shared with 100%"?

Check the skills_consumables_traps.xls file, spells tab, the F column. If the spell has multi-target as a possible upgrade, it means it is affected by the Whitelight Ring.

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magatama/curse dark magic, i assume you are glaring at nightblades black rain, means if you curse them with black rain or blow needles and they attack you with physical damage they take the same amount of damage back, doesnt work with techs like whirlwindsword but it reflects physical spells like enemy ninjamasters, a cursed ninjamaster casting multitarget shuriken on your team will get hit by his 3 salves of shurikens and probably kill himself in hilarious fashion while you take nothing in return ^^

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One thing I noticed in my Duran game is that Turn Undead doesn't affect ghosts and specters. Was that in the original game too, or something you decided on? 

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I think it should affect them - is your level at least on par with them?
That was a limitation in the original as well.

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omg... I finally got a healing spell on the 2nd class change and its like a different game due to full heals after battle. I should have just gone light on duran to save myself so much headache up to this point.

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