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Barnacle_Ed

Character/Job Party Recommendations

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Guess I'm just forgetting things in my old age then :S 320 max damage on bosses still seems reasonable enough for endgame tbh. Especially for a support-focused Wanderer.

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Posted (edited)

After some play-testing and thought, I've decided to start a game with a femmes fatales crew of Fenrir Knight, Archmage, and Sage. I took an earlier crew with these characters (but different classes) up to the God Beasts and was amazed at how well they performed, especially against the multi-melee bosses Bill & Ben and Machine Golems. A shield bearer can do a lot to distract, leaving the two casters to bomb away. The hardest battle up to the God Beasts was probably Jewel Eater, and this was mainly because I forgot to account for Carlie's weakness to earth (incidentally, this was the first time I used a Matango Oil in many many games).

Archmage and Sage compliment each other well: they can both cast level 2 holy and dark, and Sage can power up the Archmage's other elements and the attacker with her sabers. Archmage gets the two most important stat-downs for a magic team, Power Down and Mind Down, so all that is needed are the stat-ups and a way to distract melee mobs. While Dragon Master may sound like a good idea with empowered Anti-Magic to boost the casters, Archmage already gets normal Anti-Magic, and the casters have enough elemental variety that at least one of them can almost always find a weakness without it. Fenrir Knight looks like a great alternative, providing an alternate source of HP and MP recovery that doesn't require casting, especially important if you're playing solo and want to keep your main character free to control your other characters! (N.B. Praetarius: the ability to control your second and third characters with L and R while casting would be a great gameplay update for solo players!) Lise's light classes would be interesting choices for this team as well and wouldn't require invert armor to achieve the stat-ups, but they don't seem to add as much value as Fenrir Knight with her final weapon (Star Lancer would be a strong contender if Marduke could be insta-cast). This team has two heavy bombers and a shield-bearer to keep them safe, three forms of healing including Sage's final weapon (and not counting items), all the sabers except holy and dark, Anti-Magic, Life Booster, and all the important stat-ups and stat-downs. Vive les femmes!

Edited by rpschamp
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Posted (edited)

Star Lancer could cast Marduke Very fast if you stack up INT the helm that reduce cast time and her final weapon, problem with star lancer here is that Aura Wave and Energy Ball are wasted on a magical team.

By the way just curious has anyone try the opposite a man power team with Duran, Kevin and Hawk, I don't think it would be hard To find a good party for this team (I think something Lord, God Hand (with invert armor) and Ninja Master could be effective).

Edited by Nesouk
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Posted (edited)

Star Lancer's extra spells would certainly be wasted (and Archmage already gets Aura Wave), but Marduke is so good, she's worth considering, and her armor slot would be freed. Still, shield-bearing counter commander seems to be the natural role for Fenrir Knight, and all her spells here (except Mind Up) would be unique. The only other character who would enhance her role would be Ninja Master with his final weapon; subbing out either of the casters for him would lead to interesting teams as well that would play differently but are certainly worth trying out (with the guaranteed counter recovery, you may even be able to forgo Heal Light and run with a Rune Master, though Grand Divina, Bishop, and Sage seem like more natural choices).

I'd like to see a sausage party with Sword Master and Ninja Master focused on critical hits to take full advantage of the former's final weapon. God Hand or Warrior Monk would be the third pick, but I don't play Kevin often so I'll leave that to a specialist to decide.

Edited by rpschamp
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16 hours ago, rpschamp said:

N.B. Praetarius: the ability to control your second and third characters with L and R while casting would be a great gameplay update for solo players!

with pleasure, can you provide the code for that?
I tried that once and I could only manage to make it so that using L/R cancels the casting, obviously not what you'd want.

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7 hours ago, rpschamp said:

I'd like to see a sausage party with Sword Master and Ninja Master focused on critical hits to take full advantage of the former's final weapon. God Hand or Warrior Monk would be the third pick, but I don't play Kevin often so I'll leave that to a specialist to decide.

If you take Swordmaster and Ninja Master I don't think Kevin is a good choice, as you need Def Up, Mind Up and Heal Light no way to get Def Up and Heal Light, you can get Mind Up and Heal Light with both God Hand and Warrior Monk but not Def Up, you can get Def Up with Dervish but not heal light or Mind Up.

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I should have assumed you would have already tried this. But actually, a casting cancel might be useful as an optional patch, if only for the character that you control. I would assign it to the select button so it's not likely you would accidentally trigger it. Partners' spells could be cancellable with L/R, but this would not be as useful. I'm thinking of those times when you accidentally choose the wrong spell or when you start casting but then Bill & Ben start kicking the shit out of your teammates and they need an instant chocolate to avoid dying.

My coding experience does not extend to hex editing, which I assume is your primary tool, so I don't think I could be much help at the moment.

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Posted (edited)

28 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

If you take Swordmaster and Ninja Master I don't think Kevin is a good choice, as you need Def Up, Mind Up and Heal Light no way to get Def Up and Heal Light, you can get Mind Up and Heal Light with both God Hand and Warrior Monk but not Def Up, you can get Def Up with Dervish but not heal light or Mind Up.

I might just bite the bulette (!) and stock up on scales for bosses. It might be well worth it for the avalanche of critical hits this team could dish out. But I just remembered that Sword Master's Energy Ball is stuck on self-cast, so Lord might be a better option anyways.

However you slice it, the sausage party is going to be pretty one-dimensional. At least Hawk can cast some damage spells.

Edited by rpschamp
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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, rpschamp said:

I might just bite the bulette (!) and stock up on scales for bosses. It might be well worth it for the avalanche of critical hits this team could dish out. But I just remembered that Sword Master's Energy Ball is stuck on self-cast, so Lord might be a better option anyways.

However you slice it, the sausage party is going to be pretty one-dimensional. At least Hawk can cast some damage spells.

I honnestly Feel like end game scales just aren't good compare to just have à caster, not only because of the money and/or time require to farm them, but you might struggle if the boss love To debuff you (worst being Dragon Emperor I seriously don't see how you can beat him on hard without someone that can cast Mind Up).

Also yeah that's why I suggest Light Duran To not get a one dimensionnal party, both Paladin and Lord would be good here, the Paladin is a good support that get anti magic and with his Final Weapon can be a good nuker with Turn Undead, Lord could however be pretty good with his Final weapon for a counter base strategy (also better if you have Kevin as a God Hand and his final weapon that increase the counter window, in fact now that I think of it Lord and God Hand could be an awesome team with Fenrir Knight).

Edited by Nesouk
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On 06/07/2019 at 10:31 AM, Nesouk said:

Hawk as Rogue - Carlie as Evil Shaman - Kevin as Warrior Monk

Rogue and Evil Shaman get all debuff through their abilities (Def Down with Cutter Missile, Speed Down with Landmine, Power Down with Ghost Road and Mind Down with Demon Breath)
The team also get all buff (Speed Up with Rogue, Def Up with Evil Shaman and Power Up and Mind Up with Warrior Monk).
Anti-Magic with Evil Shaman. Reduce Max HP option with Rogue and Evil Shaman. Heal Light with Warrior Monk, Tinkle Rain with Evil Shaman.
Rogue also get MT Sleep Flower and Body Change which seems good for Crowd Control, also seems that by increasing his Luck, PIE and INT he could be a powerfull pseudo-mage (especially with his final weapon) boosting his Luck could also makes him valuable with weapon that inflict Statut Effect.
This team seems promising the only thing it misses are Saber spells, having only Leaf Saber (which admitadly is a good one tough).

So want to make a quick review of this team since I came up with it, so right away I say the biggest disappointment here is Warrior Monk, looking back I think God Hand would have been better for an healer, thing is his Final weapon isn't as good as I thought it would, it turns out that putting the weapon that increase Heal Light and Items is better for strengthing up heal light than Warrior Monk's final weapon, to put in perspective with 28 PIE (max for Warrior Monk) and Protect Earrings with Diamond Knuckle Kevin's Heal Light for 514 while with Holy Claw heal light does 374 with empty tech bars up to 491 with full tech bar so we have a flat almost 40% bonus against a 30% bonus you have to build up, so yeah this final weapon is really questionnable sacrificing Tech is quite a high price for getting an effect that really isn't that effective (not to mention Holy Claw's effect doesn't affect Healing Items unlike Diamond Knuckle) at the end of the day. Warrior Monk is still good for buffing, debuffing and Leaf Saber tough.

Now Rogue however does't disappoint, now Sleep Flower is honnestly useless but that's about it Rogue's weakness exploiting potential is honnesltly maybe even better than Angela his elemental spell doesn't cost to much, are powerfull and relativly fast to cast things get crazy once he get his final weapon the double damage makes any spell strong but with weakness it's a flat 300% bonus (not counting potential day bonus and saber bonus), even without Mind Up or sabers he can come very close from the 800, it helps that Luck is such a good stat, when he doesn't have MP Rogue can just attacking with Crit he does good damage (and also chance to proc statut effect with equip with such weapon), also Land Mine being MT is really good for random cleaning and making thing safe thanks to the Speed Down effect, also Reducing Max HP and Defense is valuable for boss fight.

Evil Shaman I found her to be quite good once you get the Armor that increase LV Power and remove element for Resistance/weakness purpose, she can just apply Power Down and Mind Down effect of Ghost Road and Demon Breath to any one, also Evil Shaman has I think the earliest access Anti-Magic so that's a plus, also one good thing about Dark Carlie in general, the item that allow to turn into a Necromancer is available on shop, that item effect is Black Curse so Dark Carlie give basically access to a buyable Shadow Zero's Eye quite usefull for boss fight xD.

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Warrior Monk's final weapon:
it is less meant to be a pure healer weapon, more like a assisting healer.
Build up TP wait til you need to heal, do so, follow up with the Lv3 tech and build up again.
WM shouldn't have enough max MP to just spam heal light so he can unleash his techs while you wait for that to build up again, possibly with a leaf saber.

I get the following values with 16 PIE:

random claw - 237 heal
diamond claw - 350 heal
holy claw, 0 TP - 237 heal
holy claw, 5 TP - 300 heal
holy claw, 9 TP - 350 heal

with 2x protect earring
random claw - 372 heal
diamond claw - 485 heal
holy claw, 0 TP - 372 heal
holy claw, 5 TP - 472 heal
holy claw, 9 TP - 552 heal

Holy Claw just scales differently than diamond; HC adds your TP to PIE for heal purposes so it is better to get an incompetent healer into the competence zone.
Diamand and the earrings increase the multiplier of heal light on PIE.

2 hours ago, Nesouk said:

also one good thing about Dark Carlie in general, the item that allow to turn into a Necromancer is available on shop, that item effect is Black Curse so Dark Carlie give basically access to a buyable Shadow Zero's Eye quite usefull for boss fight xD.

very expensive though, not really a good replacement for a debuffer.
Well, one dark Charlie already learn black curse herself the other has at least half of it in ghost road + demon breath.
I mean, sure, if you are willing and able to burn that much money that would make Evil Shaman certainly the better of the two.

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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Warrior Monk's final weapon:
it is less meant to be a pure healer weapon, more like a assisting healer.
Build up TP wait til you need to heal, do so, follow up with the Lv3 tech and build up again.
WM shouldn't have enough max MP to just spam heal light so he can unleash his techs while you wait for that to build up again, possibly with a leaf saber.

I get the following values with 16 PIE:

random claw - 237 heal
diamond claw - 350 heal
holy claw, 0 TP - 237 heal
holy claw, 5 TP - 300 heal
holy claw, 9 TP - 350 heal

with 2x protect earring
random claw - 372 heal
diamond claw - 485 heal
holy claw, 0 TP - 372 heal
holy claw, 5 TP - 472 heal
holy claw, 9 TP - 552 heal

Holy Claw just scales differently than diamond; HC adds your TP to PIE for heal purposes so it is better to get an incompetent healer into the competence zone.
Diamand and the earrings increase the multiplier of heal light on PIE.

Funny still with 28 PIE but adding a second Protect Earring (so 2 Protect Earrings) I get this :

-Holy Claw at max TP : 602
-Diamond Claw : 598

So 2 thing out of this : 2 Protect Earrings makes Heal Light better with Holy Claw than Diamond Claw (altough at 28 PIE the difference is really extremely small), and apparently the more PIE you have the more Diamond's bonus get closer and eventually better than Holy Claw's bonus, sadly since I want Leaf Saber and Mind Up to be MT in my team I have to use a Whitelight Ring so no 2 Protect Earrings.
So my guess is Holy Claw would be more valuable if Warrior Monk was build as a secondary back up healer (if you have another main healer in your team), sadly I build him as a main healer since he was the only one with Heal Light in my team, as a result I max out his PIE quickly and so the Holy Claw's effect isn't as valuable as it could have been.

39 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

very expensive though, not really a good replacement for a debuffer.
Well, one dark Charlie already learn black curse herself the other has at least half of it in ghost road + demon breath.
I mean, sure, if you are willing and able to burn that much money that would make Evil Shaman certainly the better of the two.

Didn't say it was a good replacement, but it's an available option can be good on bosses as it take less time to cast than setting all the debuffs one by one, also in case of boss like Gildervine who absorbs both Ghost Road and Demon Breath making Evil Shaman unable to set her debuff without Anti Magic it allow to debuff without wasting time or MP on anti magic, altough this issue with Evil Shaman is solve later once we get the armor that increase spell's LV by 1 since it also make them ignore resistance and weakness (by the way is this armor allow Rune Master's LV3 Spells to apply statut effect on ennemy that would normal drain said spell (I suppose the answer is yes but just want to be sure) ?), so it can be usefull but of course can't afford to use them on every single boss fight.

Edited by Nesouk
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49 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

by the way is this armor allow Rune Master's LV3 Spells to apply statut effect on ennemy that would normal drain said spell (I suppose the answer is yes but just want to be sure) ?

the description is to be taken literally - resistance and weakness are ignored, absorb is not

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1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

the description is to be taken literally - resistance and weakness are ignored, absorb is not

Then in that case it's probably an oversight but I can assure you it ignore absorb to, I just cast Holy Ball on a Grell Mage, who absorb Holy, with this armor on my Evil Shaman and it did Normal Damage to it. And I can safely say that it's the case for all the ennemies that absorb Light in the Ancient Ruin of Light since I use Holy Ball quite a lot, can also assure that ennemies that absorb water (tested on Slime Prince and Bee type of ennemies) take damage from Ghost Road with this armor ^^.

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Posted (edited)

Following Nesouk's example, here's a review of my current group and favorite to date, Les Femmes Fatales: Lise as Dragon Master, Angela as Archmage, Carlie as Sage.

This group is the strongest magical focus group I've played. For random encounters, Lise controls the field using a shield when necessary, and Angela and Carlie clear screens with MT Level 2 spells. For bosses, Dragon Master uses her invert armor for buffs, Archmage covers the two most important debuffs, Power Down and Mind Down, and nukes, and Sage provides Leaf or basic elemental sabers, healing, and extra nukes when necessary. What's particularly great about this team is how it scales with the increasing difficulty of the game: at the first class change you get MT damage spells and Heal Light, at the second class change you get spell level upgrades and increased access to buffs and debuffs, and at your final weapons you get Spirit Cane, which gives Archmage an extra 50% damage boost against weaknesses, Gigas Flail, which provides another option for group healing, and Dragon Lance, which through empowered Anti-magic almost guarantees the double weakness boost for Archmage and the weakness boost for Sage, who otherwise only has access to two elements. Dragon Lance also helps for those situations where a boss otherwise resists everything, i.e. DOLAN, allowing Archmage and Sage to continue their work and preventing your magical focus group from resorting to melee. I've taken this group up through the God Beasts, and Mispolm has been the only battle where I've found an advantage in abandoning casting for an alternative damage strategy, and here the low melee damage of your casters actually helps you to accumulate tech points while minimizing thorn damage.

Strengths of this group? Combat is nicely streamlined: Lise distracts while Angela and Carlie slaughter. Learning the weaknesses of every enemy is actually kind of fun, and it's satisfying to figure out the shortest path through a group of enemies. Treasure hunting is super easy: this group gives you a ton of control over which enemy you kill last, and since Angela and Carlie provide most of the damage, Lise can be pumped full of Luck to increase your rare item gain. Lise's shield enables her to pull certain melee-heavy bosses like Bill and Ben, the Machine Golems, or Lugar away from your casters, leaving Angela and Carlie free to knock the bosses around the field, one spell after another. Bosses that rely on swarm damage like Genova and Gildervine are a joke. Also, surprisingly, you are immune to most status effects while casting, so you can use this to your advantage against Cockabirds or Frost Dragons if you want to keep that accessory slot for something else.

Weaknesses? Since it can be seductive to pump most of your early stat gain for your casters into Intelligence or Spirit, especially with thorn armor to take care of heavy melee-ers, high physical damage from Level 2/3 techs can catch you off guard. For this reason it's important not to ignore your Vitality stat or at least be willing to change up your equipment for added protection when necessary. Also, DOLAN. Because he has no weaknesses, the best you can do is remove his resistances with empowered Anti-magic or use equipment that neutralizes your element. Because you can't get the weakness bonus that gives Archmage such an advantage on pretty much every other boss, this battle can take some time. It doesn't help that he's primarily tuned for big group physical damage, this group's main weakness. I clocked the fight around 20 minutes on my current playthrough, though it seemed more like 30 or 40.

Similar groups and substitutes? A similar group that wouldn't depend so much on empowered Anti-magic would be Lise as Vanadis, Angela as Rune Master, and Carlie as Necromancer, as Rune Master's Rune Staff and Necromancer's Great Demon offer ways around elemental resistance without having to rely on neutral spell armor. Rune Master would not be able to exploit weaknesses as powerfully or consistently as Archmage, but she would get some helpful status effects with her Level 3 spells, and Necromancer would help out more with single-target weakness damage. Lise would also not be reliant on invert armor for buffs. Dark Hawk could be an interesting substitute for Necromancer as well to bring up the melee damage, or even Rogue and Archmage. I may give some version of this group a try after I finish my current playthrough. For my current group, I tried Fenrir Knight as an alternative to Dragon Master, more focused on HP/MP recovery with her final weapon than casting damage. Not being able to hit a weakness or bring down resistances was a disadvantage for certain bosses though, and I found that I didn't always have the option to go for counters (again, DOLAN). In the end, I would rather rely on Leaf Saber and Magic Walnuts than give up empowered Anti-magic.

Thanks again, Praetarius; your great work on this game and consistent updates (especially the recent Lise-shield update) have made this a thoroughly enjoyable experience with every group I play.

Edited by rpschamp
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27 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Also, DOLAN. Because he has no weaknesses

technically he is supposed to be weak to non-elemental (he resists all elements)

I think at this point I've only not yet read about esoteric team compositions that try to focus around the more niche stuff like Balmunk and Fireblaze.
Go on.

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Full female seems really fun, especially now that Lise has access to shield to get the aggro ^^, alternatively I think using Dragon Master, Bishop and Magus could be interesting Bishop could provide Physical damage endgame with her Final Weapon which this team otherwise lack, Bishop provides also 5 Sabers, Def Up, Turn Undead and also Magic Shield makes her the best healer in the game and on top of that she mostly doesn't need whitelight at all (maybe just for Zable Fahr to get Saint Saber MT).

This mod definitly has a huge replay value, even the 3 same characters can lead to various team composition depending on how you choose the class, I definitly have some team I want to try on on future playthrough. On my LP I plan to go Lord, Fenrir Knight and for Angela I hesitate between Rune Master and Magus, I really want to try Dark classes for Angela and they both seems good Rune Master bring the 4 main sabers and crowd control with statut effect on her LV3 spells, however I think thanks to her Final Weapon removing the 20% debuff when casting MT Magus could very well be the best random cleaner in the game, just get her final weapon give her the armor that allow spell to ignore resistance/weakness and just spam the spell you want (preferably spell of the corresponding day to still get the bonus damage from it), when facing a boss that has a weakness just remove said armor (it helps that Magus can exploit every weakness save for Holy) or could rely on Deathspell but I don't think this would work for me so far I've always been below boss's Level in all my playthrough xD (finish both my Star Lancer/Ninja Master/Bishop and Duelist/Archmage/Vanadis playthrough at LV93), Magus also having Lunatic, Power Up and Mind Up is also interesting.

I also want to give a shot to that Fenrir Knight, Ninja Master and Grand Divina team I was thinking the other day, also really wish to try some classes just haven't figure out with which other to pair them (mainly Kevin's Death Hand and Hawk's Wanderer) so much team to try out xD 

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Posted (edited)

Before the Lise-shield update, I tried a similar team of Ninja Master, Star Lancer, and Grand Divina. This team had a ton of damage options, though in the second half of the game I found Grand Divina more difficult to crank out damage than I expected; she would have to cast three or four spells where Archmage with her weakness bonus could get away with one or two. In theory, this isn't so bad, since her spells come out so fast, but in practice I found that she sucked up both time I had to control the field and do other things with my lead character and MP from throwing out so many spells. Fenrir Knight could help with the latter, but honestly it's tough to use your lead character to the best advantage when Grand Divina is just constantly on the spell menu. I don't see a way around this except with a more advanced system where shortcuts could be assigned.

On a different topic, I contend that between Sage and Bishop, Sage is the better healer, her final weapon providing an alternative to Holy Flail for situations where passive healing is advantageous, especially if you want Carlie casting spells other than Heal Light more often. Gigas Flail is so much better than Mad Beast Fang, healing at more than twice the rate but also affecting the entire group. Interestingly, because its HP gain is static, it encourages the use of defense boosting armors rather than HP boosting armors, each HP being much more meaningful for the former. I'll admit though that I haven't really given Magic Shield a fair chance, and if its physical defense bonus stacks with Defense Up, it may be quite useful for a magical focus team. Between Bishop and Sage, I see the main difference being a physical fighter versus a more versatile caster/healer by the end game, aside from minor differences like MT sabers versus Leaf Saber and Life Booster. Spells like Turn Undead never appealed to me because, like you, I'm almost always under-leveled.

Which brings me to Magus, the only Angela class I haven't tried. Death Spell, like Turn Undead, never appealed to me. For direct damage, I'd go for Archmage; for damage type versatility, I'd go for a light class with holy damage; for recovery options, I'd go for Grand Divina; for crowd-control options or low magic-power function, I'd go for Rune Master. Apart from the fact that all Angela classes are pretty much awesome, I can't think of too many teams where I'd see an advantage in choosing Magus, unless you plan to be over-leveled or don't have another way of casting Mind Up.

In the team you suggested of Dragon Master, Magus, and Bishop, however, I can definitely see her potential, but not from spell damage: her combined +30% damage from neutral spell armor and +20% MT damage would just equal the normal +50% damage from hitting a weakness, considerably below the +100% MT or +140% ST damage Archmage gets from hitting a weakness, which she almost always can, especially with Dragon Master around to help when necessary. Her advantage would instead be in her buffs, as everyone would benefit from her Mind Up, and both Dragon Master and Bishop could use her Power Up for an alternative damage source against magic-resistant bosses like Dolan. Plus, Dragon Master wouldn't be stuck on invert armor for boss battles where you want a better defense boosting armor as well as the group Defense Up. Also conveniently, Bishop would supply the missing Holy element for spell damage. This team has the potential to be quite powerful and versatile for a team with two casters, and I'd love to see how it would play out.

Concerning Rogue: How often does his double-spell damage hit? From what I can tell from the mechanics files, at max Luck it should be about 1/3 of the time. In this case, Rogue and Archmage should do about the same damage on average for ST spells: (150%+150%+300%)/3 = (200%+200%+200%)/3 = 200%. Archmage would still have him beat on MT spells since she can hit six elements at Level 2. Rogue and Archmage together, led by Vanadis, should make an awesome casting team, capable of dealing both physical and magical spell damage at the highest level, hitting all the buffs and debuffs, and having shields, healing, and Anti-magic. No sabers, but not a big loss with magical damage. This is one of the magical focus groups I'm considering for my next playthrough.

Concerning Death Hand: He looks like the only class who could compete with Duelist for tech damage. I've been thinking that if I ever need a break from playing magical focus teams and decide to try Kevin/Carlie's quest, I would build a team around Death Hand to take full advantage of his tech power. With his final weapon and Fireblaze, he could combo his own Level 1 tech counter into a debuff-powered Level 3 tech, and fast as hell, since Kevin's hits come out so quickly. Dark Hawk, Rogue, or Evil Shaman would make good teammates to feed Death Hand group debuffs for his Level 3 tech; of these, I think Evil Shaman would be best since she also provides both Anti-magic for those enemies with physical immunity and, more importantly, magical damage for those with just really high physical defense; this is why I think she edges out Hawk whose spells all hit against physical defense. Your other teammate would ideally provide healing and buffs, so basically Vanadis. She could also help Evil Shaman with magical damage in some cases, her final weapon lending another purpose to Death Hand's saber spells.

Edited by rpschamp
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Posted (edited)

I actually did some math the other day for Angela's class and in term of DPS I came to this conclusion at same LV of INT, Grand divina has the best DPS on all situation until you get the final weapons (which should be around the third or fourth God Beast) then things change a bit :

-Grand Divina keep the best DPS if you are against 1 target with no weakness.

-Arch Mage has the best DPS if ennemy has a weakness, and if all ennemies have the same weakness then she also surpass the others (altough very slightly against Magus)

-Magus has the best MT damage, if ennemies has no weakness (or your wearing Ancient Coat) her AoE damage is better also if all ennemy has the same weakness, then guess what she is very close from Arch Mage, due to not having the MT malus, basically on MT with weakness Magus hit 150% while Arch Mage hit for 160% (80% x 2) and this is not counting Magus has an higher INT. And if you are not running Dragon Master it will be pretty rare to encounter a group of ennemies having all the same weakness (heck often you can encounter a group with an ennemy that is weak to an element while the other absorb said element), in which case Magus can get the Ancient Coat and dont give a damn.

So overall in term of damage Arch Mage is the best for boss that has a weakness, Grand divina for bosses that don't have a weakness and Magus for AoE, and in term of utility I say all of Angela classes have thing in her favor.

For Death Hand I was thinking of Necromancer actually, Black Curse inflicting all debuffs at once would potentially be a great combo with Death Hand's final weapon, for the third member I was thinking of either Paladin (for heal light, Shield to get the aggro, Saint Saber (which Death Hand lack), Def Up, Magic Shield, Anti magic and late game AoE nuke with Turn Undead) or Vanadis (all buffs, Heal Light, tinkle rain, Shield, potentially good damage with her summon and death hand sabers), that or death hand could go well with Dragon Master spreading weakness Anti magic.

I feel the disadvantage of Death Hand over Duelist, is really duelist require almost no set up to reach his insane damage potential, while Death Hand require a set up and someone that can keep the debuff up. On the subject of having good LV3 tech damage I wonder how Nightblade perform with his final weapon, how much damage he gains from being below 300 hp ?

Also yeah Rogue is inferior to Arch Mage due to lacking some element (water and wind) and outside of land mine all his spell are st only, the double spell damage proc 1/3, however Rogue has some advantage I feel that Rogue casttime is better than Angela, also unlike Arch Mage who have to invest in both INT and PIE to max her damage, Rogue just have to invest in 1 stat Luck, and conviniently this stat allow him to be a decent physical damage dealer when he can't exploit a weakness, due to the very high Crit Rate and damage, he can also set statut effect quite efficiently with weapons that inflict them, which can be usefull.

Edited by Nesouk
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Posted (edited)

Grand Divina: Your numbers look good, I'm just saying that DPS isn't the whole story. Having to cast twice as many spells is a handicap itself as it sucks up attention and down-time. With Heal Light and Tinkle Rain, I still think she's a great choice for many teams.

Magus: One handicap that hasn't been mentioned is that she lacks Holy damage. Despite weaknesses being rebalanced, Fire and Holy still seem like the big two, and without Carlie (or Rogue) to make up for it, Magus teams will be missing that direct Holy damage that comes in handy in so many situations.

Rogue: Counting Physical as an element, he actually casts as many elements as Archmage, they're just not as useful and mostly stuck as single-target. Still, he get's Fire and Holy, and with his final weapon he's the best caster in the game to hit against physical defense. I'm now more seriously considering running him with Archmage as a teammate to see just how useful physical casting is compared to taking Carlie as a second magical caster.

Death Hand: I thought about Black Curse as well, but that spell sucks up 15 MP (in general, Necromancer spells are MP heavy), and MP drain items still seem to slow to win that back to keep up with his techs. Rune Earrings might be a solution with maxed out intelligence and cast-time gear. At some point, though, you might as well just be casting damage spells for less MP rather than feeding Death Hand's tech damage. Rogue might actually have the quickest and cheapest methods to feed debuffs to Death Hand through Land Mine (MT, 5 MP) and Cutter Missile (ST, 7 MP); teamed with Vanadis, though, you'd still be missing Mind Down.

Death Hand vs. Duelist: Duelist is certainly easier to set up, doesn't eat debuffs, and his Leaf Saber can be nice for his teammates. Death Hand, though, should have an advantage in speed. With his final weapon, Mistscreen Charm, and Aura Wave, Duelist takes three attacks to reach his Level 3 tech. With the same setup, since Kevin hits twice with each attack, Death Hand takes 1.5 attacks, meaning two attacks with the option to miss one hit. With only the Mistscreen Charm or Aura Wave, Duelist takes five attacks and Death Hand takes three. So, Death Hand can throw out more techs, but since his tech eats the Protect Down debuff, you will need to find a way to reapply it if you want it to factor into the tech damage. Death Hand can reapply it himself with Fireblaze equipped, but this will use another two attacks, plus require that one of these be a successful counter. All things considered, Duelist certainly seems like the safer and more consistent bet, but since Death Hand is certainly racking up more damage between Level 3 techs, it's still not clear to me who can reach a higher DPS, especially with team support for debuffs. Someone can try to calculate it but it might be more reliably tested.

I imagine that Death Hand might be more useful for setting up really quick combos, like MT damage/debuff spell - Level 3 tech to take out a room full of enemies, while Duelist might be better for coralling a crowd of enemies with his shield aggro and throwing his Level 3 tech right before or after a caster nukes the field. After this discussion, the Duelist strategy appeals to me more, but I'll leave it to a physical team specialist to correct me if my impressions are wrong.

Edited by rpschamp
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1 hour ago, rpschamp said:

Magus: One handicap that hasn't been mentioned is that she lacks Holy damage. Despite weaknesses being rebalanced, Fire and Holy still seem like the big two, and without Carlie (or Rogue) to make up for it, Magus teams will be missing that direct Holy damage that comes in handy in so many situations.

Let's actually take a look thanks to the documentation with the mod we can see for sure, so there is 97 monsters in total and here how the weaknesses are spread :

Air : 15 monsters (2 Monsters weak to other element as well)
Dark : 16 monsters (1 Monster is weak to other element as well)
Earth : 15 monsters (5 monsters weak to other elements as well)
Fire : 17 monsters (6 monsters weak to other elements as well)
Holy : 15 monsters (1 weak to other element)
Leaf : 6 monsters (4 weak to other elements)
Moon : 7 monsters (all weak to other elements as well)
Water : 14 monsters (4 weak to other element)
Physical : 9 monsters (all weak to other elements as well)

Also there is 7 Monsters with no weakness.

I honnestly don't found holy to be that prominent, of course it depend of the areas, there's actually more ennemies weak to Dark than Holy suprisingly enough, and thinking back I remember using Dark Force way more than Saint Beam with my Arch Mage, but in any case I don't see the lack of Holy damage as a deal breaker, the only monster against which it's truly annoying to not have Holy damage is Gremlin as he absorbs or Void every other elements but this is quite a rare monster and you can bypass his resistance with Ancient, Anti Magic or Ancient Coat anyway, and you have 2 other teammate to compensate (or even nullify the issue with Dragon Master's anti magic) anyway.

1 hour ago, rpschamp said:

Grand Divina: Your numbers look good, I'm just saying that DPS isn't the whole story. Having to cast twice as many spells is a handicap itself as it sucks up attention and down-time. With Heal Light and Tinkle Rain, I still think she's a great choice for many teams.

Well I don't mind that, I think that's more of a personnal issue there, casting multiple spell isn't an issue for me if each cast is 3 time faster than casting 1 big spell, and if you want a big spell with longer cast time then there is still Double Spell which is non-elemental. Grand Divina also get Speed Up and sabers to boost her own spells and her allies, also Transshape with a shield user could be nice on random, grand divina has a lot going on for her as a support character honnestly that happen to be able to pack a lot of damage.

2 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Death Hand: I thought about Black Curse as well, but that spell sucks up 15 MP (in general, Necromancer spells are MP heavy), and MP drain items still seem to slow to win that back to keep up with his techs. Rune Earrings might be a solution with maxed out intelligence and cast-time gear. At some point, though, you might as well just be casting damage spells for less MP rather than feeding Death Hand's tech damage. Rogue might actually have the quickest and cheapest methods to feed debuffs to Death Hand through Land Mine (MT, 5 MP) and Cutter Missile (ST, 7 MP); teamed with Vanadis, though, you'd still be missing Mind Down.

I suppose you meant Rune Earrings with maxed out AGL not INT, cause Carlie cast time depend of AGL not INT, which is actually good for Necromancer since she gets Black Rain, I think the Rune Earrings might be a good idea for that purpose, I think it could work with Paladin or Vanadis, alternatively could go with Dragon Master who can provide the debuffs as well as making ennemies weak to Death Hand's Sabers.

2 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Death Hand vs. Duelist: Duelist is certainly easier to set up, doesn't eat debuffs, and his Leaf Saber can be nice for his teammates. Death Hand, though, should have an advantage in speed. With his final weapon, Mistscreen Charm, and Aura Wave, Duelist takes three attacks to reach his Level 3 tech. With the same setup, since Kevin hits twice with each attack, Death Hand takes 1.5 attacks, meaning two attacks with the option to miss one hit. With only the Mistscreen Charm or Aura Wave, Duelist takes five attacks and Death Hand takes three. So, Death Hand can throw out more techs, but since his tech eats the Protect Down debuff, you will need to find a way to reapply it if you want it to factor into the tech damage. Death Hand can reapply it himself with Fireblaze equipped, but this will use another two attacks, plus require that one of these be a successful counter. All things considered, Duelist certainly seems like the safer and more consistent bet, but since Death Hand is certainly racking up more damage between Level 3 techs, it's still not clear to me who can reach a higher DPS, especially with team support for debuffs. Someone can try to calculate it but it might be more reliably tested.

Well I don't know how much damage Death Hand gain with each Debuff's consume so can't really say, another more niche thing Death Hand is apparently the only class that can cast Lunatic as an MT spell, don't know if it's a mistake in the document, but if it is true a good use of Death Hand could be to cast Life booster on everyone at once with this with the Invert Armor, but that's a niche. I think you are right on Death Hand getting more hits and on paper building his tech faster than Duelist tough, I think I'm definitly gonna give a shot to a Death Hand party next time, his potential seems good.
Having a shield is definitly a plus for Duelist tough as he can act as both a tank and Damage Dealer, tough I liked my set up where I was using Sage Stone and White Light Ring allowing him to instantly set the Sabers on him and his teamates (to strengthen Angela's nuke for Mob fight) or instantly fill his Tech Bar with Aura Wave whenever he have enough MP for it (proves suprisingly effective with Leaf Saber ^^).

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Posted (edited)

I like your tabulation, but it also depends on how the resistances fall; e.g., if I run into three enemies, each with different weaknesses and resistances, what is the least number of spells I can cast to blast through everyone? One interesting thing about Holy and Dark from your table is that most of those monsters are weak to no other elements, so you can't compensate with other elements when you need to prioritize these enemies. Some of these are especially annoying, like Cockabirds for Holy or Silver Wolves for Dark. I admit I may have some left over bias from the original game and maybe need to try to work in other elements more regularly, especially Water and Earth.

I think everyone has their tolerance for number of spells cast per battle, especially with random encounters. If I can cut that number in half, I can save half my sanity (and as a regular Angela user, I think I have a pretty high tolerance for this sort of thing). But also remember that the more spells you cast, the more chances you have to be counter-attacked and the more chances enemies get to sneak in extra spells or techs due to lag issues. Spells aren't cast in a vacuum, as much as we'd like them to be. Still - I love the Grand Divina - my first true love in this mod.

Yes, I did mean Agility for Necromancer. With Rune Earrings, revive armor, and her final weapon, Necromancer could split time between buffing Death Hand when her HP are high and direct damage spells for extra damage when her HP are low. This might make quite a strong team with Vanadis for a third.

Extra damage for Death hand is in the tech damage mechanics file, and it depends on the buff. With Black Curse, the multiplier should be (3+2+1+1+1)/3 = 267%, so pretty substantial.

Also, I'm not sure if that multitarget Lunatic is a typo - Ninja Master's jutsus are also exclusively multitarget. That would be a nice bonus for Death Hand. Praetarius, can you confirm?

 

Edited by rpschamp
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1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

another more niche thing Death Hand is apparently the only class that can cast Lunatic as an MT spell, don't know if it's a mistake in the document

not a mistake, it is in really set as one/all lunatic - don't ask me what I with thinking with that. though I won't change that now.

50 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I think everyone has their tolerance for number of spells cast per battle, especially with random encounters. If I can cut that number in half, I can save half my sanity (and as a regular Angela user, I think I have a pretty high tolerance for this sort of thing).

is that with the patch that lets you skip spell animations or without?

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My guess is you were thinking Spiral Moon without the damage.

I am not skipping spell animations - I generally like the down-time to plan my next attack (or take a sip of beer). If I play Grand Divina again though, I may reconsider.

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Yeah the patch that cut animation and Fast forward option make spell more tolerable ^^.

1 hour ago, rpschamp said:

Yes, I did mean Agility for Necromancer. With Rune Earrings, revive armor, and her final weapon, Necromancer could split time between buffing Death Hand when her HP are high and direct damage spells for extra damage when her HP are low. This might make quite a strong team with Vanadis for a third.

Extra damage for Death hand is in the tech damage mechanics file, and it depends on the buff. With Black Curse, the multiplier should be (3+2+1+1+1)/3 = 267%, so pretty substantial.

That would be nice, either Vanadis or Paladin as a third could work I think both get Heal Light and Shields (better shields for Duran tough), Lise's get all buff and Tinkle Rain, Paladin get Saint Saber, Anti Magic, Magic Shield and Turn Undead (with his Final Weapon).

1 hour ago, rpschamp said:

I like your tabulation, but it also depends on how the resistances fall; e.g., if I run into three enemies, each with different weaknesses and resistances, what is the least number of spells I can cast to blast through everyone? One interesting thing about Holy and Dark from your table is that most of those monsters are weak to no other elements, so you can't compensate with other elements when you need to prioritize these enemies. Some of these are especially annoying, like Cockabirds for Holy or Silver Wolves for Dark.

Yeah there is variable that's why at say it depends of the situation, for instance in area like Ghost Ship who is filled with Holy weak ennemies, same with Dark Castle IIRC in these area not having Holy Magic will indeed hurt, while a place like Bucca's island cave who is fill with Dark weak enemy not having Holy Magic will not be a huge deal, then again you can get Dragon Master's uber Anti Magic and make these ennemies weak to everything (tough not really reliable to cast it over and over considering how much it cost) or bypass their resistance with Ancient Coat so there is ways around it.

 

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