praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

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So I have tried the God beast of Darkness, well sadly I got fucked cause Carlie was made useless she had a ring that allow here to drain MP except instead of stealing MP she was loosing them, making her basically useless so I will have to change that, so I suppose trying to drain either MP or HP from result in him draining ours.

Outside of that I manage to get to the second phase, for the first one the left head is weak against physical so she goes down easily, the right head is weak to magic more annoying as I don't really have solid Magic Damage also Evil Gate does good damage on me and Anti-Magic is annoying, then the middle head she doesn't seem to have a weakness to either (maybe weak to Light but since Carlie couldn't cast I wasn't able to try) in any case as far as it goes my only concerns is the left head Demon Breath and the Middle Head's Death Spell and Dark Force (who hits like a truck), Death Spell is thankfully single target I estimate the middle is LV77 or higher as that was my LV at the moment.

So maybe I haven't see everything it seems manageable if I correct that thing with Carlie so I can have her Healing me.

 

Edited by Nesouk
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Yeah, Zable Fahr always inverted absorb effect but is not really undead.

It also gets a few pseudo levels for the sake of using Death Spell so you can't negate it by overlevelling; your only chance against that is the ring with death protection.

To clarify it before, the one head's fire breathing attack is not fire damage but dark as well.
And the middle head has one more somewhat subtle gimmick.

 

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So beat the darkness god beast wasn't as hard as I thought it would be : 

-So as I find out last time Left Head is weak to physical and right head to magic, of course they are weak to Light so Saint Saber is a god sent here so I replace the Tree Ring of Carlie (which was useless for this fight) by Whitelight Ring to Saint Saber MT.
-I also realise that the middle head seems to get stronger the longer the fight last (her Dark Force was deal 200-300 at first but near the end of the fight her Dark Force was dealing nearly 500).
-Mind Up and Power Up are the only buff to care about apparently, they have no physical attack, and since they can use Anti-Magic might as well reduce the number of buffs needed.
-So when the middle head come out she regenerate the other head so I figure that like almost EVERY fucking boss that have 2 or more allies in J-RPG, I just have to kill one of the 2 other head and the main head will not regenerate the dead, and looks like I was right so I can make this 3v3 a 3v2, as for which head to kill first I choose the left one cause with my team she is by far the fastest and easiest to kill, might argue that the right one is the most annoying one due to Anti-Magic but killing would require quite a lot of ressources.

So basically :

-Hawk does the debuff (Thunder Jutsu and Fire Jutsu as Def Down and Mind Down are the only debuff I care about in this fight) then he is the Damage Dealer with Power Up, Defense Down and Saint Saber he can over 100 (300 with crit) to the left head and 60 (140 with Crit) to the middle, Crit seems to occur more often than previous God Beast so at one point I put Detect on the Middle to increase the off.

-Carlie Saint Saber, Magic Shield on herself, she take care of the right head in the first phase (Saint Beam does over 500 damage to the right head), when the Middle Head appears she is pure healer (at that point she heals over 700 with MT Heal Light ^^) and put Saint Saber back if Anti-Magic, Death Spell or a LVUP occur.

-Lise buffs with Power Up and Mind Up when necessary (also Energy Ball on Hawk help), help Carlie killing the Right Head with Marduke, the best thing would be that she attack the middle head with Hawk sadly her IA didn't want to cooperate for the most part and keep attack the right head -_- well at least I set her to use her LV2 tech which is an AoE which does decent damage on the middle head so at least she contributes to the fight. Also on a side note her Spears that use INT instead of STR for damage is quite good, since INT allow to reduce her cast time and give her more MP to use, this is a stat that I have actually maxed out (for obvious reason I want her to cast faster and being able to cast as much as possible for fight like this one (Anti-Magic)) and since I want to primarly focus on VIT and PIE next this spear allow her to do respectable damage with no investment on STR at all.

EDIT : Also I forget for Death Spell I had 20 Angel Grails ready for it ^^

 

Edited by Nesouk
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12 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I'm not working on this anymore.

Just a little thing I've noticed on my last playthrough, the spell upgrade: Sudden ring doesn't seem to be reducing cast time at all, but it does still 0 your MP.

Edited by Valenhil
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I think it has more to do with the game itself than the accessories effect, sometime I noticed the castime for was varying a lot sometime spell are casted almost instantly sometime they take a while, same with Techs, I think it's just the game having trouble to load. 

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only supportive spells like buffs sabers and debuffs, except black curse can be casted instantly ^^

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It also works with statut effects spell (Sleep Flower, Body Change...etc...), but in any case for me the Sudden Upgrade is useless anyway the only accessory that gives it to you makes the spell cost all your MP, and it is a late game accessory if I'm not mistaken not really worth it, I say increase the stat that allow faster cast-time, equip equipment that reduce the cast-time and Speed Up and the castime is already non-existent (when the game doesn't have trouble loading), and on that note Carlie, Hawk and Lise all 3 have access to weapon that use the same stat that the one that reduce their castime making STR potentially irrelevant for them even if you plan to use physical damage with them ^^.

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Sorry, I posted that in a hurry before I forgot about it and didn't put much substance into it so it came through as a bit of a non-sequitur. I was traveling but I'm home now.

Anyway, Praetarius, I know you're not working on this anymore, but I'd been using my break to play this with friends so I'll just relay what we found so far and you'll at least have the feedback. Team is Lord, Rune Master, Dragonmaster. We're up to the first go at the Holyland, so the halfway point. We will continue this when possible.

  • Duran's shield aggro mechanic has huuuuuge strategic value and completely changed some fights, like Bill&Ben. I'd recommend also giving Lise access to them so the effect is less exclusive.
  • Dragonmaster player felt severely underwhelmed with a crit build even rushing points into luck and switched to tech gear. Maybe ties into the next point if it's a case where it performs better at the end of the game.
  • A lot of gear available in the first part seem to only be useful for the latter half, like the elemental and status resistances (The only status resistance that sees use is Petrify because of Gorva, really). Maybe switch them with some crucial build gear that is only available in the second half, like cast time reduction and crit bonuses
  • Speaking of Gorva, while not too hard per se, that fight does take an abnormal amount of time even with Angela casting. Melee only teams should be even worse, given its high evasion. I recommend giving it very low physical defense to properly reward hitting it when it's within range.
  • One mentioned Nightblade and Ninja Master's techs seem switched around, thematically speaking. Think I also said that once.
  • Angela player has been accounting for most of the team's damage even if not hitting a weakness, Lise player was frustrated that despite equipping for physical damage, fights were defined almost entirely by the spell going off. I believe physical attacks could stand to be brought at least a little closer.
  • Bill&Ben round 2 died without splitting up

 

Edited by Valenhil
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47 minutes ago, Valenhil said:

Duran's shield aggro mechanic has huuuuuge strategic value and completely changed some fights, like Bill&Ben. I'd recommend also giving Lise access to them so the effect is less exclusive.

That's honestly something I wanted to do - specifically for dark Lise; but it isn't possible with how shops work.
They are limited to 12 items at once; if the game loads 13+ slots it'll glitch around a lot.
Any item can only have one condition.
So "have Duran and/or Lise in the party" is not possible to set.

If you have any idea how I should set shops up for that, we may talk.

52 minutes ago, Valenhil said:

A lot of gear available in the first part seem to only be useful for the latter half, like the elemental and status resistances (The only status resistance that sees use is Petrify because of Gorva, really). Maybe switch them with some crucial build gear that is only available in the second half, like cast time reduction and crit bonuses

I wanted to have my basics covered, second half items are supposed to be heavily specialized stuff.
This way I have less to worry about when I throw everything and the kitchen sink at you.

54 minutes ago, Valenhil said:

Speaking of Gorva, while not too hard per se, that fight does take an abnormal amount of time even with Angela casting. Melee only teams should be even worse, given its high evasion. I recommend giving it very low physical defense to properly reward hitting it when it's within range.

maybe

57 minutes ago, Valenhil said:

One mentioned Nightblade and Ninja Master's techs seem switched around, thematically speaking. Think I also said that once.

I disagree, if only on the grounds that it is consistent with the enemies techs (B/B are ninjamaster and use shadowdive just like NM-Hawk, nightblades use split image slice like NB-Hawk)
and in vanilla it works so that ninjamaster has his MT option in spells and nightblade his in the Lv3 tech while the other stuff is single target.

1 hour ago, Valenhil said:

I believe physical attacks could stand to be brought at least a little closer.

and how would I do that?
the big problem is how much more buffable physical is compared to spells.
power up + def down is the same as mind up + m.def down
but did you include sabers? only +10% for magic but +10% for physical and another potential +50% for weakness hits that didn't exist before
energy ball?
aura wave?

also magic deals more high number but rarely occuring damage
while physical is low to medium damage but all the time.
how do you compare that?
or is that just the same problem as with Duran's recovery? purely psychological

45 minutes ago, Valenhil said:

Bill&Ben round 2 died without splitting up

You can perform the same in vanilla, for both B&B fights.
The condition is HP below half but you can burn that down before the game is able to execute that action.

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3 hours ago, Valenhil said:

Angela player has been accounting for most of the team's damage even if not hitting a weakness, Lise player was frustrated that despite equipping for physical damage, fights were defined almost entirely by the spell going off. I believe physical attacks could stand to be brought at least a little closer.

Hmm I disagree here in my current playthrough I gear Hawk to be my main Physical Damage Dealer and OH Boy does he does the job very well, granted I use a Crit Build but even without with the exception of when the ennemy resist or is immune to physical he does good damage with his attacks and LV1 Tech, and if you manage to found the ennemy weakness, set the day you are fighting to the one of the corresponding spirit and use the corresponding Sabers and you will do good damage by the time caster is casting + the animation of the spell (and if you want big numbers Crit can happen and LV2 and 3 taking the sabers elemental into the equation can do some huge numbers).

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3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

That's honestly something I wanted to do - specifically for dark Lise; but it isn't possible with how shops work.
They are limited to 12 items at once; if the game loads 13+ slots it'll glitch around a lot.
Any item can only have one condition.
So "have Duran and/or Lise in the party" is not possible to set.

If you have any idea how I should set shops up for that, we may talk.

I guess you could do away with the status resistance shields, since those are already covered by other accessories, and make half the shields for Lise, and Half for Duran?

 

3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I disagree, if only on the grounds that it is consistent with the enemies techs (B/B are ninjamaster and use shadowdive just like NM-Hawk, nightblades use split image slice like NB-Hawk)
and in vanilla it works so that ninjamaster has his MT option in spells and nightblade his in the Lv3 tech while the other stuff is single target.

I did say "Thematically speaking", as in how you don't expect a Pyromancer to start throwing Ice spells. A Nightblade is a class halfway between the Rogue and Mage points of the Warrior-Rogue-Mage triangle that's characterized by using shadow magic or illusions related to the cover of darkness, their shadow, or the target's shadow to attack, which is exactly what Shadow Dive is. Since I don't think either class is too dependent on having a ST or AoE tech, I'd say they could be switched around for that thematic consistency.

 

3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

and how would I do that?
the big problem is how much more buffable physical is compared to spells.
power up + def down is the same as mind up + m.def down
but did you include sabers? only +10% for magic but +10% for physical and another potential +50% for weakness hits that didn't exist before
energy ball?
aura wave?

also magic deals more high number but rarely occuring damage
while physical is low to medium damage but all the time.
how do you compare that?
or is that just the same problem as with Duran's recovery? purely psychological

I'm comparing to angela's spells that were not hitting a weakness. Also, physical attacks can miss. I was playing a Duran completely ignoring physical stats and in full Defense gear, so I didn't mind being a meatshield just walling the enemies away from the team, but since the Dragon Master was fully equiped for physical offense, I guess he's not wrong to expect to have a larger impact on the fight, but frankly speaking, he could be equipped the same as me and fights would still go the same way: the spells were accounting for too much of the damage. While it's alright for a tanky build, I don't think a physical powerhouse should be feeling they're just buying time for a spellcast.

Even accouting for the fact that Duran naturally does more damage than Lise, I think physical attack gear(of all types) could stand to have more of an impact to widen that gap.

But accouting for Nesouk's feedback, I can assume crit builds just take a while to start showing results.

Edited by Valenhil
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I'd also like to know if that Lise has as much STR investment (or relevant stat for alternate stat weapon) as Angela had INT level ups.
Or what type of weapon light? heavy?
...there's too many variables...

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Yes, he was consistently raising STR and Luck while using the crit-focused gear. They were both maxed before both class changes. After the second class changed he switched to the 2x tech weapon and accessory and tech damage up helm, and felt an improvement over the crit build, but Angela was still way ahead. But I don't feel angela was doing too much damage, only that the way we were, the Lise was risking take way more damage for no real reason. He really could just switch to defense gear and we wouldn't progress all that slower, if at all.

I think it stands to be said that standing still for casting turns into an advantage when the enemies are all drawn far away from the caster by the shield's aggro effect, while the melee hitters still risk getting hit even with the shield

Edited by Valenhil
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For physical damage I think AGL should be raise in order to avoid the ennemy dodging your hits, Speed Up and Speed Down can help to. 

All that being said I think Hawk is better for Damage than Lise, for Crit Build Hawk in Ninja Master also has the Detect ability that reduce the target resistance to Crit Rate and Damage, on top of gear and Energy Ball, plus Hawk has the Double hit so that's 2 chance to crit (same with his LV1 Tech), admitadly I use Lise as a Star Lancer more as a support/tank than for damage which means I didn't increase her STR (tough as I said I max out her INT and use the spear that use INT instead of STR) that much and didn't touch her Luck so I can't say how a fully offensive oriented Lise could turn off.

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Well, I guess I could increase physical power a bit.

Though I'm afraid how that'll turn out, 700+ attack in max attack gear is already possible (normal ends more around 400) and very stupid.

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I don't think increasing power would be a good idea plus we are talking for Lise and Hawk, but what about Kevin's Werewolf form (which is even stronger in Dervish) ? Or Duran's Duelist that get a innate boost for his LV3 Tech ?

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Well, I am speaking relatively. Two points, in this case:

How does your the physical character's damage compare to your dedicated caster's, and do your fights go much slower when that character is not equipped for physical offense?

Those were my observations. Riesz was not doing enough damage above a full defense duran (not putting a single point in STR, even), and too much below a dark angela, but both those characters feel right in the damage they do so I thought bringing only the gear dedicated to physical offense a little bit up would be a good idea. Individual issues would require individual tuning, but I don't think there's any reason to assume this at this point, and praetarius has a better view on that anyway so whatever conclusions he reaches is probably better.

Edited by Valenhil
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Do you have numbers for me how different the damage between the 3 was?

The problem with boosting phys offense gear is just how much it can escalate between if you stack "nothing" and "everything".
Magic has just magic up, m.def down, saber, maybe speed up for cast time, can hit one weakness.
Physical... power up, def down, speed up, speed down, saber, energy ball, aura wave, analyze, weapon "strength",... I'm probably forgetting something.
Can potentially hit 2 weaknesses, but also be resisted on the physical side and then needs anti-magic...
And most of these are multiplicative with each other.
The problem is, most parties will have about half of that?
And that is not even getting into how simple magic gear selection is (just magic up) versus physical gear (atk up, crit up, tech up, ...)

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The numbers I have now aren't as good because the Lise has been leveling only Spirit for new spells, so the disparity is even lower, but even when the Lise had max STR and the Duran close to minimal it didn't feel worth it.

Riesz has 16 STR +1 tech weapon and accessory, tech up helm, Attack armor and accessory
Duran has 17 STR, MP drain weapon, Phys Def armor and helm
Angela has Magic helm and armor

Porobin Hood

Gets hit by Duran for 26, Tech 152
Gets hit by Riesz for 36, Tech 231
Angela Explodes for 291, cast time is a bit under 3 hits from the others
Hits Duran for 41
Hits Riesz for 127

Edited by Valenhil
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So I defeated Jagan :

Spoiler

Goddamn his Ancient 2 hit like a truck, I could barely survive it and at one point he tried to cast it 2 time in a row thank god I was able to heal between the 2, his ad are annoying apparently immortal cause I was dealing no damage nor statut effect to them, but I found a way to make them less painfull the armor that reflect physical damage was a good call, since the mostly use physical attack they take damage when they attack me this isn't relevant what is is the fact that the reflected damage also push them back it's just a few seconds but through the all fight it still prevent them to do damage for some time.

Other than Ancient 2 the biggest threat in this fight is the Bloody Wolf's FST it does a LOT of damage, if he manages to combo that to one of Jagan's AoE it can extremely dangerous, fortunatly he uses it rarely, the Carmilla Queen is annoying to because of Poison but Tinkle Rain help with that so she is the least dangerous of the 3, I noticed Jagan took more damage from Fire (or maybe it was because of Salamando's Day), so I use Fire Jutsu, Thunder Jutsu and Detect on him all buffs as well as Flame Saber, Energy Ball on Hawk and Magic Shield on Carlie. I just focus on Jagan with Hawk, hopefully the add will focus on another character (Lise is a good candidat as she has good defense) and use Carlie as a support for Healing Light, Tinkle Rain or put Flame Saber when Jagan use Moon Saber on me. 

 

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Yes,they are immortal.
Well, technically they only regenerate 65k HP every second.

And since I forgot so far:
Zable Fahr gets bonus damage for both a portion of the HP it itself has lost AND all the HP the target is missing.

 

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OK so going through the Final Dungeon :

Spoiler

Argh refight of previous bosses never being a fan of these OH well :

-Full Metal Hunger : Damn the lags are serious in this fight, other than that Poison is annoying and I note that while Tinkle Rain's added resistance to statut works wonder for mob fight, it never seems to work on bosses, even with Tinkle Rain I rarely seen a statut effect spell from bosses miss. Holy Ball is only Dangerous for Hawk, Bubble Breath is annoying and Heal Light heals him for 600-700HP, that being the Spike armor reflect his regular attack damage for 999 (it does around 680 with crit on my character) so that's nice I guess, other than that Buff/Debuff then attack and Heal Light we know the deal.

-Genova : OH God not him again T_T, I'm having flashback, well at least we have more tool to deal with him this time, I noticed Ice seems effective so Ice Saber, all buff and Magic Shield on Carlie Water Jutsu to counter his Power Up, Thunder Jutsu to reduce his defense and Hawk was dealing around 110 (330 with Crit) per hits, a little more for Lise (around 130-150) so he goes down fast but his add are annoying.

Don't know if I have other refight to do, I suppose next new boss will be Bigieu, the ennemies are really tough here I might had to leave and refill my inventory, would be annoying to do all the road again tough.  

 

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Tinkle rain only protects against status from basic attacks; spells are always 100% chance

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I'm on Bigieu :

Spoiler

OK seriously WTF is this fight ? All of her physical are guaranteed one-shot they do 999 even with Protect Up and Attack Down and as a result Lamia is a guaranteed Game Over due to Sleep, is there a trick cause as of now for me this fight is either impossible either completly RNG.

EDIT : OK Manage to defeat her by abusing the Spike Armor and the glitch that allow to cast despite the character being technically dead, since she does 999 damage she also take 999 damage and when a character is casting he stays "alive" and so it's possible she hit the casting-dead character for 999 added damage per hits she does, so I basically just let Lise and Carlie cast Marduke and Saint Beam while just running around with Hawk hoping she focus on Carlie and Lise and that I have enough Angel's Grail, this is honnestly the only way I figure to beat her. 

 

Edited by Nesouk
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