praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

461 posts in this topic

Vanadise with shield would simply be Lord in better, and I can't do a class requirement of "any except LL".
I can only do: any, any light, any dark, LL, LD, DL, DD - exactly what you would expect from the vanilla weapon/armor distribution.

I think I'll go with 3 status protection shields otherwise Lise would get access to a def shield before Duran - which would be weird given that it is his gimmick originally.

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Hmm I think Vanadis doesn't need more option, Lise's Light Classes are already the only class among all character that can apply every buffs (while for Debuffs Hawk and Carlie Dark Class can cover them all to) and she can get every buff right from the first class change, so I think that's already a pretty big advantage (not to mention her Light Class's summons are good for mob fights and Vanadis has a pretty strong LV3 FST if I recall).

Actually looking at her classes even in her Dark pass Dragon Master looks pretty damn good already, the only class of Lise that don't appeal to me is the Fenrir Knight (even tough the final weapon looks pretty damn amazing).

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Posted (edited)

Not giving Lise a defense shield makes sense, but the status protection shields don't work too well either. There are already accessories that do that, they're useless most of the time, and the times they are good they're TOO good (Example, take the sleep resistance shield to Gildervine, it'll only cast Sleep flower on the only target that's immune to it, removing the need for the other party members to carry their own status resistance) for a single accessory slot. It'd be better to give her new effects if defense is no good. Since Lise isn't that good an attacker, offensive bonuses would make more sense as it furthers her generalist nature as she'd still need to be raised defensively to make the most of the shield.

Vanadise is good, no mistake, and the main intent of allowing Lise to equip shields is to enable more team compositions to have access to one, not strenghtening Lise's classes further, which is an inevitable side effect. But the dependency on the Whitelight Ring is a very real downside, and the addition of the shield furthers that. I guess, if push comes to shove, reverting her buffs to single target would further that "accessory tax" even more, but I do believe making the shields attached to two characters instead of one character and one pathway would be overall healthier.

Edited by Valenhil
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I've no intention of changing the effects of shields at this point.
Duran will keep his 9 shields, only 3 on which will also be usable by Lise.
I'd say the ones that protect against poison, silence and chibikko since those are mostly on enemy melee attacks.

I think I'll indeed go with the ST buffs on Vanadise then and Lise in general gets shields.
Otherwise she can do literally everything half-decently or better; buffs, heal, spell damage (elemental with class weapon), physical damage and tanking.
She's a single rare drop (Shadow Zero Eye) away from being a one woman party.

So we've basically three character groups now:
physical damage dealer: Hawk and Kevin
magic nuker: Angela and Charlie
tanks: Duran and Lise

I think I can live with that.

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Posted (edited)

Wait, I'm confused. I thought you said you couldn't set shields to Duran and Lise, only one or the other?

Edited by Valenhil
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in the shop offers, there I can only check for one of the other.
if they can equip it is a different check and there it is no problem

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Without giving the two different effects, I think that's as good as it'll get. The main draw would be the aggro effect, regardless, so that's covered.

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yeah, originally - way back when - I just wanted to make one shield with aggro effect; the status resist or def is just the icing on the cake

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Posted (edited)

Well continuing with the Swordmaster, Warrior Monk and Arch Mage, I really how this is playing differently than my previous game. 

Bill and Ben second fight was hell with this team, man at least in the first fight they don't deal that much damage outside of Shafow Dive and Jutsu, here 2 single hit from their normal could kill Duran (He had a good VIT but he was lacking in Armor (still had the first one cause I didn't think the armor available up to now where interesting) and Angela (Not Kevin cause he has a high VIT) once they split in 2 it become ridiculous, manage to somehow beat them Jinn's Day + Thunder Saber make Kevin in Wolf Form hit very hard and Angela's Air deal a lot of damage, basically I used a hit and run strat with Kevin and constantly casting with Angela, had to use some throwable items at the end cause I had only Angela left, no Angel's Grail and 1 of the 2 was dead so I bet all on throwing items at the end.

Machine Golems a fun fight with this team (with Carlie, Hawk and Lise I was more on a defensive strat) cause they can destroy me very fast just as I can kill them quite fast, Thunder Saber + Power Up + Wolf Form Kevin's damage are impressive (and his LV1 Tech is really good), Duran LV3 FST is quite good to (almost 300 damage), Angela with Mind Up and Thunder Sabers was dealing 320 with MT Air Blast, so it's basically comes to who kill the other faster.

This team has so far no problem with Mob fight at all however the lack of Def Up is severe for bosses (even tough I had Bulette's Scale for Bill and Ben), I gonna have to invest (or farm) on Bulette's Scales a lot (also when I will have the Armor that invert Buff/Debuff which I plan to equip on Duran Bulette's Scale will also give me Def Down which is the only Debuff I lack and might be usefull for bosses).

Man the fight with Gildervine was ridiculous.... in my way for once XD. I think I never reach that much Damage Mind Up, Mind Down, Flame Sabers, Salamando's Day and Angela was dealing over 700 damage with Explode XD, Duran with his LV3 Tech was dealing over 500 with Flame Sabers and Power Up (didn't have Def Down I would have low to see that XD), so YEAH he didn't last long.

Edited by Nesouk
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I'd like to hear some strategic views about physical attacks: when is it better to use normal hits, and when should you use heavy hits? In case you're wondering, I'm talking about this (from the readme file):

 

Quote

The regular attack is freely available, does little damage but generates tech points with each hit.
...
A stronger version of the regular attack is available by holding the attack button but no direction button;
attack power is increased based on strength, miss chance and crit chance is reduced and delay before next attack is increased.

 

 

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For me, the basic difference is whether I want to generate damage with the attack or simply use knockback to control the field. I find quick attacks to be useful for keeping incoming enemies out of range for melee damage, for instance, if Angela is casting a spell that will kill the enemy and I just want to guard her and avoid taking damage while she gets the spell out (I find this works especially well with Hawk, who can basically keep his double swing going constantly). They can also be used to quickly build up points for a level 2/3 tech. Otherwise, I tend to use strong attacks for general damage purposes.

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Also depend on which kind of build you play if you play a Crit Build like I was with Hawk I see no reason to use Strong attack since they reduce Crit Rate.

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I'd rather base it on the target.
Something with high evade like Ninjas? Strong attack.
Something that is about to become unhittable (FMH, Gorva, Fiegmund)? Give it one strong attack when the longer cooldown doesn't matter.
Otherwise you're likely better off to use quick attacks.

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Posted (edited)

Just for clarification, because I assumed it was a typo: Do strong attacks increase or decrease chance for critical hits? I assumed anything that would increase hit chance would not reduce critical hit chance.

Or do I need to improve my critical reading?

Edited by rpschamp
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strong attack has more base damage and less variance:
less chance to get misses
less chance to get crits

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Posted (edited)

Then just a minor criticism (extended pun ++): I would interpret strong attacks as a focused attack (a strike) and quick attacks as less focused (a fend). A focused attack should take more energy, and so should more likely result in the desired result, including a critical hit. Quicker attacks resulting in more critical hits implies that the extra damage somehow comes from less focus... then why focus? In the simplest sense, the strength of the attack should lie along one axis. And if a critical hit is harder to achieve, then it should not result from a cheaper swing.

Edited by rpschamp
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in that comparison the light attacks would be more like wildly swinging around; more likely to miss than to hit but may also catch the opponent off guard (crit)

strong attacks have 2 ups and 2 downs:
+more damage
+more accuracy
-longer cooldown
-less crits

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Posted (edited)

I see... the balance is important. I was thinking the cooldown was so bad it must account for +strength, hit, crit.

In general terms of combat, I don't think that swinging wildly around will result in critical hits. Critical hits are incisive and require concentration... a carefully aimed shot from a sniper is more likely to hit home than a shot fired hurriedly with the main purpose to outshoot the enemy.

This is a minor criticism. I am loving every minute of this game, and of all the areas to enjoy I am spending the evening in Seaside Cave collecting ??? seeds and Poto junk. Four beers in and two ??? seeds to go. I think I can make it to three before I pass out?

Edited by rpschamp
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If you need the class change items you can just buy them in the mid-desert town.

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No need; I managed to pull 8 ??? seeds, 6 from farming Papa Potos and 2 just from fighting through the cave. From these 8 seeds I managed to pull all 6 class change items, which I consider pretty lucky since the RNG was harder to jostle than I anticipated. With a 1/10 chance to pull a ??? seed (wearing 2 Beastman Collars), I must have farmed about 60 Papa Potos, resetting between each to limit the exp gain. All in a night's work! The jazzy music helped.

So, I am nearing my second class change and would like some input on final classes. I'm running dark Hawk, light Lise, and light Angela (the first two deathless; thanks Gorva). I probably can't choose wrong with this group, but I am thinking about two teams in particular:

1) Ninja Master, Vanadise, Arch Mage: This one seems obvious. Mind Up and Mind Down for Arch Mage already getting a 200% bonus on weaknesses with six elements, Anti Magic to support Ninja Master, and recovery spells on Vanadise. Multi-target Fire Jutsu followed by level 2 spells to clear screens. No sabers, though; attacking would be mainly to keep enemies occupied during casting. With two casters, though, this would be mostly up to Vanadise.

2) Nightblade, Star Lancer, Grand Divina: This one seems more fun and possibly more adaptable. All three characters have stronger attack to make use of Grand Divina's saber spells (60% attack bonus on weaknesses). Grand Divina does not get the extra 30% (extra 80% for weaknesses) spell boost from Arch Mage's level 2 spells, but she has Mind Up and Mind Down to support her; plus, her spells come out faster, and so she may be able to get twice as many spells out which would make up the damage. No Anti Magic to support Ninja Master, but the ignore physical immunity weapon and the spell level boost armor should help him get around this. Two options for silencing, one single-target and faster and one multi-target and slower, and Aura Wave as well to support the fighters. Grand Divina really stands out to me as a fun class on this team: every one of her spells is useful, and she gets 18! For this team, I could switch out Nightblade for Ninja Master to help with screen clearing (although Nightblade's upgraded multi-target Shuriken or FST plus Grand Divina's spells might be enough), and it's not clear to me which of these two classes has the better final weapon, although on paper Ninja Master's seems more interesting. I could also switch out Star Lancer for Vanadise if the extra recovery options, saber-able summon, and FST are worth sacrificing the multi-target silence, Aura Wave, and higher attack.

Any advice from people with experience with these final classes would be appreciated!

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Posted (edited)

Also, on the Lise-shield topic: I feel like the shield is Duran's niche. Plus, spears are two-handed, and I'm thinking it would be difficult to program a shield onto Lise's sprite (though I could be wrong). One option that could be interesting for Vanadise would be sabers from the four basic elements (which would also make her self-sufficient for her final weapon). You could take away Tinkle Rain to balance this, giving her recovery options equivalent to the Paladin but with more buff spells as opposed to Paladin's shield options, Saint Saber (arguably the best saber), Anti Magic, and Magic Shield (which is an awesome spell). You could also make everything single-target if you think this overpowers her.

Edited by rpschamp
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Wouldn't that make Vanadis overlap with Carlie's light classes tough ?

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Posted (edited)

Yes, it would bring Vanadis closer to Bishop and Sage as well. Bishop and Sage have Holy Ball though, one of the best damage spells in the game and acquired early, so light Carlie still has a niche. Also, depending on which final light class light Carlie chooses, she will either become a better melee fighter or caster than Lise and still end up with a direct damage advantage. Because of Vanadis's increased buffing power, it might be better to rebalance Lise's final class stats, trading Vanadis's max strength with Dragon Master's (and maybe Star Lancer's with Fenrir Knight's).

The main purpose of giving Lise the basic sabers would be to create more options for team building (especially for magic-oriented teams), and making Vanadis self-sufficient in a limited way would be a nice bonus.

Edited by rpschamp
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Posted (edited)

I guess what I would want to avoid is Duran and Lise becoming too similar. As physical damage dealers, Hawk and Kevin are different enough due to their different approaches, Hawk with multi-target options and Kevin focusing on the rushdown. As magical damage dealers, Angela and Carlie are different enough through their focus on pure offense vs. mixed offense/defense. As tanks, Duran functions as a traditional tank with his aggro shields, while Lise increases the tank-ability of all characters through her buffs. If you start giving her shields then I'm afraid their roles would blur together.

Edited by rpschamp
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I guess I see your point but the problem is if you add Sabers to Lise's Vanadise you get a character that get access to all buffs, Heal Light, Shield AND Sabers this is to much IMO, and if we do that then same problem Lise overshadowing Duran completly, Duran's Light Class focus on Defensive Buffs (Def Up, Magic Shield, Speed Up) and healing (Heal Light) meanwhile his Dark Classes focus on Sabers, Lise's Light Class cover all buffs which is already better than Duran's buffs and Vanadis have both Heal Light and Tinkle Rain, add her Sabers and I fear Vanadis will then almost remove any reason to take Duran in the first place as Vanadis would step on both Duran's Light and Dark classes at the same time.

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