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Barnacle_Ed

Character/Job Party Recommendations

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18 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

My guess is you were thinking Spiral Moon without the damage.

probably, I faintly recall someone wanting proper spiral moon on kevin - because that would totally make sense - and this would indeed by a way to give them what they asked for without giving them what they want.

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So now Nesouk has me excited to run a Duelist group; I haven't played him since the original game. I'm thinking casters for his teammates to take advantage of his Leaf Saber and because he probably supplies enough physical damage already. God Hand might also be a fun teammate but I can't get the buffs/debuffs to work out. Any ideas from recent Duelist games? Duelist, Vanadis, Archmage sounds great since it can hit all the buffs/debuffs except for Speed Down by using Fireblaze. Or I could take Carlie and someone else with buffs and just manipulate the RNG to collect Bottles of Ashes from ??? seeds for bosses.

Before I forget to ask again: Is the Fireblaze defense debuff functionally the same as the Protect Down spell?

Also, can Vanadis's final weapon give her summon its element from a weapon element accessory, or does it have to be a saber spell?

Edited by rpschamp

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Fireblaze defense shred is seperated , every counter mutiplies regular enemys defense by 0,75 stacking multiplicative.
so 200 defense becomes 150 then 113, 84, 63 
defense down reduces defense by 10 but then slaps a damage multiplier of 1,25 to your physical damage
against bosses they loose half your STR stat additive

fireblaze and protect down stack

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Wow. That's amazing and not at all obvious from the included files. What exactly do you mean by "defense down reduces defense by 10"? Is the minus 10 or half your Strength stat the additive part of Protect Down, meaning you can cast it multiple times to increase the effect? More importantly, does a counter with Fireblaze lower just physical defense or magical defense too? The item description just says "defense". If not, is there another way to multiplicatively lower magical defense, or is physical defense special in this regard?

It was my understanding that the most you could get out of buffs/debuffs was 25% plus or minus from the basic Up/Down spells or other spells/items that replicate their effects. Can other buff/debuff spells apart from Protect Down can be cast multiple times for additive effects? If so, this changes the game considerably and is crazy to learn after a year or so of play.

Edited by rpschamp

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with they stack i meant that fire blaze an protect down stack with each other, not with themself
fireblaze just reduces physical defense everytime it procs, can proc twice on kevin and hawks lvl 1 tech in a row 
from the mechanics guide:
16) if Lv1 tech and successful counter attack and Fireblaze equipped:
    reduce target physical defense permanently!!
        -25% for regular enemies
        -STR/2 for bosses
        -1 for bosses that are "immune" to this effect
since the defense loss is permanent it cant be dispelled by antimagic or deathands final weapon

Edited by LittleBigTrouble

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fireblaze modifies physical defense only but directly, repeatable until it hits 0
-25% for regular enemies
-STR/2 for bosses
-1 for bosses that are "immune" to this effect

I've no idea what he meant by the -10; def up/down just slaps a x0.75/x1.25 multiplier on the damage

8 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Also, can Vanadis's final weapon give her summon its element from a weapon element accessory, or does it have to be a saber spell?

saber only

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Holy Shit Fireblaze really work like that ? I thought it was just applying the def down effect, man that makes Lord and Ninja Master who can force counter state with their final weapons even more valuable than I thought.

Duelist has some really good potential, having most Sabers, Anti Magic and Aura Wave already makes him valuable, and also Aura Wave already makes him self sustainable in regard to tech building, I think some team that come in my mind :

-Duelist, Evil Shaman, Warrior Monk

-Duelist, Nightblade, Vanadis

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Yeah, I read that in the mechanics, I just didn't realize it was repeatable! So Hawk and Kevin can add two debuffs per counter with their double hits.... The fact that they're permanent is great for Death Hand who eats everything else with his final weapon. I can definitely see Death Hand outpacing Duelist for single targets now, especially during boss fights. In general this mechanic makes melee/tech damage a much more viable strategy.

Edited by rpschamp

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How about this team: Duelist, Vanadis, God Hand. This team takes full advantage of having all sabers at hand. Final weapons all work well together here. During fights when you need magical damage, Vanadis comes through with her sabered-up summon, while your fighters heal and whittle away physical defense using Fireblaze. All buffs, defense debuff through Fireblaze, and either Mind Down or Power Down with invert armor, depending on the boss. Two healers, a shield bearer, and tons of MT tech damage! (A team without Angela is almost inconcievable to me, especially on her quest with Duran, but it may be time to branch out.)

Edited by rpschamp

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9 hours ago, LittleBigTrouble said:

didnt the defense buffs/debuffs also add/substract a flat 10
or was it only the buffs ? ^^

neither should have that; maybe you confuse it with saber which gives +10% atk on top of the element?

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On 20/8/2019 at 2:05 PM, rpschamp said:

Yeah, I read that in the mechanics, I just didn't realize it was repeatable! So Hawk and Kevin can add two debuffs per counter with their double hits.... The fact that they're permanent is great for Death Hand who eats everything else with his final weapon. I can definitely see Death Hand outpacing Duelist for single targets now, especially during boss fights. In general this mechanic makes melee/tech damage a much more viable strategy.

Well melee was already viable without it, but yeah I can definitly see Death Hand doing more damage than Duelist, and as I say I see a lot more value in Lord's and Ninja Master's final weapon being able to provoke the Counter State to take advantage of Fireblaze could really have impressive result.

On 20/8/2019 at 3:15 PM, rpschamp said:

How about this team: Duelist, Vanadis, God Hand. This team takes full advantage of having all sabers at hand. Final weapons all work well together here. During fights when you need magical damage, Vanadis comes through with her sabered-up summon, while your fighters heal and whittle away physical defense using Fireblaze. All buffs, defense debuff through Fireblaze, and either Mind Down or Power Down with invert armor, depending on the boss. Two healers, a shield bearer, and tons of MT tech damage! (A team without Angela is almost inconcievable to me, especially on her quest with Duran, but it may be time to branch out.)

That could work to, to be honnest Vanadis seems like the perfect pair for Duelist ^^, Duelist, Ninja Master, Vanadis could work to (tough I personnaly think Lord would be a better pair with Ninja Master ^^), Ninja Master's Jutsus being able to deal AoE damage (which can be boost by Duelist's sabers), debuffs and with his Final Weapon force a couterable state which Hawk can then take advantage himself with Fireblaze if the target is weak to his Jutsus, Ninja Master is also a good fighter himself, Vanadis can do her healing/Buffing job or put a shield to get the aggro and Duelist build his tech, apply the sabers or Aura Wave.
Or Duelist, Star Lancer and Warrior Monk give invert Armor to Warrior Monk so that he get Power Down and Mind Down and he would be your main healer, Star Lancer with her Final Weapon and the helm that reduce cast time is probably the fastest caster in the game, she could buff the team quite fast, or fill Duelist tech bar with fast Aura Wave cast, boost critical rate with Energy Ball and have Marduke who is still an awesome summon for random fight and Duelist can keep doing his job.

EDIT : Well since rpschamp decide to do a girl only team, I'm gonna give a shot to man only team, doing the Archdemon route, think I'm gonna try Death Hand, Dark Hawk (unsure between Ninja Master and Nightblade) and Paladin.

EDIT 2 : Started the man only team did go to Tzenker, have to say this was the easiest early game I ever had, I even manage to first try that pain in the ass that is Jewel Eater this is the first time I beat him first try, Full Metal Huger give me trouble mostly cause Kevin was weak to Holy, the Machine Golems got completly destroy by this team, as for Tzenker I just made sure to buy the Byzel armor for Hawk and Dark Kevin to remove their weakness to Wind and to have gotten some Molebear's claws and I destroy her, Hawk's Shuriken are so good in this fight for their Accuracy debuff and good damage at the same time, Kevin can just beat the shit out of her (reach 70 damage per hit and over 200 with LV2 tech).
Must say I'm quite worried for Genova tough as the problem is Bashkar, Ninja and Knight have no AoE whatsover (unless getting Whitelight Ring for Ninja so that he can cast his Shuriken MT but that's not an option right now).

Edited by Nesouk

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OK quick review of Duran, Kevin and Hawk team, to put it simply I'm amaze by how this team perform so far.

The early game up to Tzenker is almost child play with this team, only random ennemies that pose problem are Slime as they resist physical and even then with well place counter they aren't that much trouble, and on the fun factor not having spell make the combat feel more dynamic. Jewel Eater can still be an issue due to his normal attacks hitting like a truck, but on the other hand this team can kill him faster than any other team.

After change class to Ninja, Bashkar and Knight this team carry Tzenker as I mention earlier. I was worried about Genova due to the lack of AoE but nope, strat is don't give a shit about the mobs and focusing on him after reducing his defense with Thunder Jutsu, carrying some stardust herbs to dispel his debuff, byzel's armor to Duran and by being cautious the fight did go well, use LV1 tech this way we can hit the mobs to.

Bill and Ben were troublesome however, Shuriken reducing their accuracy definitivly help tough, Knight protect up is also usefull, set everyone on LV1 Tech and procede by being cautious eventually they go down.

Once on the ghost ship whitelight ring for Ninja and Knight, a funny thing I didn't know if the one character that has heal light is the one cursed it doesn't matter auto heal at end of the battle will still apply so I could go with Hawk and Kevin just fine.

Gorva is more annoying than hard since he spent so much time out of reach, this team being physical can't do much outside of Ninja, so Gorva end up being an endurance fight.

Bucca island cave altough not as easy as a team with sorceress (her just having Evil Gate makes a huge difference), this team perform well MT Shuriken reducing accuracy and Knight's MT protect up and heal light makes the team quite safe, Kevin can just punch everything.

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Team Manpower, I like it. I expected Tzenker to be a difficult battle since she's hard to reach half the time but I guess not? Also, for deathless players, do you think it's possible to beat Gorva before he casts Deathspell? I'm wondering if you can use Heal Light to damage him.... Otherwise with only Shuriken I just don't see it happening without stocking up on tons of projectiles at Byzel. Which might be a good idea anyways since only one of your characters can cast for damage through the majority of the game.

I took a break from my ladies for now to work up a Rogue/Archmage team. I want to test the efficacy of having a physical and a magical caster vs. having two magical casters.

Edited by rpschamp

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Tzenker was suprisingly easy her weakness to both Earth and Physical makes this team able to damage her very efficiently, with Hawk being able to debuff her accuracy she can't do much, you have to be aware tough that both Hawk and Dark Kevin are weak to wind if you don't cover their weakness as I did then yeah I guess she can be deadly, as for beating Gorva before Deathspell yeah I definitly don't see how it would be possible not only Hawk and LV2 Tech are your only source of damage, but he has quite a good Evasion lot of my hits were missing despite having cast Earth Jutsu on him, and he spend so much time out of reach that sadly can't do much against that I took 3 Deathspells before beating him. Didn't try Heal light if it works then Knight (or Monk depending of the team) with 2 Protect Earrings might be able to do it otherwise I don't see how to beat him before Death spell with these 3.

So Bill and Ben nothing to say they are like in Rolant they just hit harder, but this time I have MT Shuriken and MT Protect Up so more easy to survive their hit, so second class did go Death Hand and Paladin for Kevin and Duran as I planned, for Hawk I decided to go Nightblade with Hawk at the end of the day (I think Ninja Master would be better but I want to try out Nightblade, I keep a save before the second Class Change if I see I can't handle this then I'll go back and pick Ninja Master instead), will still rely on MT Shuriken (with Whitelight Ring) for mobs until I get Black Rain which might be good with Death Hand being able to boost it with Dark Saber. Death Hand gonna be Tech Damage dealer must say he definitivly build his damage faster than Duelist his LV3 Tech is less powerfull though, also an annoying thing until I get his Final weapon there is only 1 chance out of 2 he does the AoE or the Throw. Paladin is going to be mostly support until late game where he will be able to get an AoE spell with Turn Undead.

Edited by Nesouk

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Continuing the Manpower, I honnestly begin to consider that this is the best team I ever had, the only thing I would change would be to replace Nightblade by Ninja Master to get MT Debuff which would be better otherwise this team is just good plain and simply and I think I almost set as to how to play them (just waiting for the final weapons) :

-Deathhand : Just the resident puncher, for now I'm playing him with weapon that fill tech bar x2, Mistcreen Charm and Whitelight Ring he fills his tech bar lightning fast not even taking Aura Wave into account, for now the only downside being that it's never guaranteed that he will perform his FST, and he can also buff everyone with his Sabers when there is a weakness to exploit, and he is pretty hard to kill on top of that, as for stat once his spells are learned (through INT) I focus on his STR, AGL and VIT it works well for now.

-Nightblade : Now the only reason I took Nightblade over Ninja Master is.... well I just wanted to give him a shot but I honnestly think Ninja Master would have been better, that's not saying Nightblade is bad, he is pretty good himself, Shuriken can be made MT with Whitelight Ring and their accuracy debuff is pretty usefull since most mobs attacks physically, also for his unique spell Fire Breath and Poison Breath didn't thought they would be usefull but they actually came handy Fire Breath damage are pretty good against target weak to Fire (Slimes and Carmillas) and Poison Breath is decent non-elemental option who can set poison, Blow Needles is very usefull when against a mobs that has powerfull tech (the Knights type especially) and the big one is Black Rain a pretty powerfull AoE which can be boost by Death Hand's Dark Saber, as for the rest I focused on his PIE, AGL and LCK so once he is caster against Mobs and on boss fight after setting the debuff he can join Death Hand for Melee damage through Crit Build.

-Paladin : Now the big tank/healer of the team, obviously having MT Heal Light and MT Protect Up is a good thing, on top of that he has Anti Magic which allow this party to have a counter against ennemies resistant or immune to physical damage, he also has Saint Saber which give this party acces to all 6 main Sabers with Death Hand and Magic Shield this spell seems so underrated in this forum so I'm gonna put it simply, this spell give Def Up and the Defensive part of Mind Up at once this is great cause this party lack Mind Up but it doesn't end there, it also boost the Healing Power of Heal Light so basically acting as a Mind Up for Heal Light, a good use of it is also casting it just after resurecting a dead member this way the character get the 2 Defensive buffs (also work if one character get hit by Anti Magic). Also on that subject I want to talk about the Rune Earrings, it take a long time to make up for the increase cast time (lot of investment in INT and the Helm that reduce cast time) once you do however the pay off is great, magic costing HP instead of MP allow the Paladin to cast way more spells than he normally could (like he can cast 3 Magic Shield in the row no prob while with MP he would need a Walnut), more so it basically make Heal Light completly free of charge and totally make up for the fact that this team doesn't get Leaf Saber. And of course Paladin is a great tank as well thanks to Shield especially the ones that increase defenses. I really like the Paladin now he has so much going on for him.

This team cons are obvious however : 

-Outside of Hawk and LV3 Techs there is no AoE option (and importantly no AoE option up to the Ghost Ship), also sadly unlike Duelist Death Hand can only cast Aura Wave on himself.
-No Mind Up, Power Up or Speed Up, Magic Shield makes up a little of the lack Mind Up but this is still an issue altough Matango Oil and Sahagin Scales are an option, Power Up would have been nice since this team is mostly physical and Speed Up is always nice to have.
-Debuff are ST only outside of Shurikens (solve if you take Ninja Master instead of Nightblade).

As for the bosses up until now :

-Machine Golems : Suprisingly I found soloing this guys with this team to be the best option, thing is Paladin still has trouble casting his MT Heal Light at this point, so keeping everyone alive is quite tough, so keeping the all team alive is really hard so I just decide to solo them, it is suprisingly effective because they are very easy to counter and so it's easy to take advantage of the Fireblaze here, so just do a hit an run strat using LV1 Tech, healing with items, buffing with items (I had Drake Scale and Siren's Claw to spare) and cover the weaknesses with Byzel's Armor.

-Lugar : Anti Magic is the key, once he has been Anti Magiced and Debuff with Hawk this team can destroy him, he still hit like a truck so be carefull.

-Gildervine : Death Hand's Flame Saber and LV3 Tech along with MT Shuriken allow to deal with the mobs and the quite easily once he is alone he is honnestly a joke.

-Drangaard : I just use Blow Needles at each phase to Silence him, this is more meant to be a source of money than anything else anyway.

-Dolan : Now everybody know how much I hate this fucker, in fact I again had some cheap deaths where the game won't let my character cast his LV3 Tech between Energy Ball and Spiral Moon, outside of that however this team perform very well against him by far the smoothest fight I ever had against him, in fact this is the first time I beat him without the Armors that increase HP, basically Kevin can take care of his gimmick with Aura Wave he can build his tech bar in no time, Hawk debuff him and together with Kevin they do most of the Damage, Duran just set the Magic Shields and then spam Heal Light for the entire fight (or heal with items), if someone die (possible if he crit with his Normal attacks) then I just throw Angel's Grail and have Duran cast Magic Shield on him.

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Are you making use of fireblaze on preffereble hawk or kevin ?
since it reduces physical defense it also buffs the damage of hawks spells constantly, especially against bosses, just set one of them to lvl 1 tech only with the item equipped
another toy u can try is the magatama on hawk and let him cast black rain on normal enemies and watch the carnage unfold ;)

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Well Hawk is always set on LV1 Tech with Fireblaze, but to be honnest it really doesn't prove that usefull, mobs die to fast to fast to make Fireblaze relevent, and I never saw that much of a difference on bosses outside of Machine Golems. For mob now that Paladin has his Final Weapon him and Hawk can just spam AoE to take care of the mobs, Paladin's Turn Undead is really great for AoE damage.

Speaking of the Final Weapon, I honnestly not sold on Death Hand's Final weapon, I think it's mostly due to my team not being good at setting either debuff on multiple ennemies or multiple Debuff on 1 ennemy at once (not to mention that on bosses it's annoying to debuff them again), so can't really take advantage of it as a result it's only advantage is that it guaranteed Kevin will do his FST, but by the time he build his Tech Paladin and Nightblade can clean the room, so I'm sticking with the Rock Claw with Kevin so he can build his tech Lightning fast to use them.

Hawk is more builded for being a caster currently so his final weapon is useless for me, hmmm might try the Magatama Black Rain with Bishamon, Crystal Ring and the Skuleton Mail.

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nah just magatama is enough, no need to boost his magic damage, it inflicts a debuff that makes normal fights pretty easy (reflects 100% of the damage they do)

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I'm starting a Rogue/Angela team and I need help picking a third teammate. I've been wanting to run Rogue for a while to see how well physical casting can work, especially with Fireblaze around, plus Luck is such a great stat. I'd like to pair Angela with him for elemental variety and MT damage; plus this will allow me to directly compare the most powerful physical caster directly against the most powerful magical caster.

I'm thinking of running either light Kevin or dark Carlie as the third. (I'm not interested in Lise or Duran for this team.) Light Kevin would give me two double hitters, open up my Fireblaze potential, and allow me to run Archmage or even Rune Master, but I would be missing some important skills like Protect Up no matter how I choose the classes. Dark Carlie would stick me with Grand Divina, but the casting potential of this team would be unreal, plus the buffs/debuffs may work out better, especially with Evil Shaman. It seems though that Angela's sabers might be wasted on this team....

Any suggestions from people who have played or thought of similar teams?

Edited by rpschamp

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So Rogue, Angela and you don't want Lise or Duran so it's either Kevin or Carlie so for me well here my thought :

Rogue, Arch Mage and Bishop : 

Get all debuff with Arch Mage and Rogue, Bishop provide Def Up and Magic Shield give the defensive part of Mind Up, Bishop also give 5 sabers to boost Rogue and Arch Mage, you also get Anti Magic and Aura Wave from Arch Mage.

Rogue, Magus and Warrior Monk :

Give Invert Armor to Warrior Monk to get Power Down and Mind Down, Warrior Monk provide Leaf Saber for MP management, Magus provide Power Up and Mind Up as well as Lunatic for bosses, you are missing Protect Up so will have to use scale for that.

Rogue, Grand Divina and Dervish :

I'm less sure for this one, my idea is that Grand Divina will provide Sabers with Dervish completing it with Moon and Leaf saber, give Invert Armor to Dervish so he get Protect Up, for Power Down and Mind Down you could rely on scales with Invert Armor, the like of mind up isn't as detrimental cause you can rely on scales or can farm Matango Oil which are very easy to get.

Rogue, Rune Master, Sage :

Honnestly doing a team of Rune Master and Rogue seems tricky without Vanadis, Sage provide Holy and Dark Element that Rune Master lack as well as Leaf Saber and Mind Up and her Final Weapon, you are lacking Power Down, Mind Down and Protect Up so you will had to make for it with items.

Rogue, Rune Master, God Hand :

Invert armor on God Hand to get Power Down and Mind Up, so now you miss Protect Up and Mind Down compare to the previous team.

Rogue, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman :

Get all debuff, anti magic, Def Up, speed up, the 6 main sabers this team only lack Mind Up as an essential, this look good on paper.

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10 hours ago, LittleBigTrouble said:

nah just magatama is enough, no need to boost his magic damage, it inflicts a debuff that makes normal fights pretty easy (reflects 100% of the damage they do)

Huh not you are talking about but Magatama don't give such debuff, from what I tested Magatama basically give Black Rain 20% chance to inflict 25% more damage, on night so Bishamon and Crystal Ring boost the damage further, Skuleton Mail is because most mobs in Dark Cave and Dark Castle nullify Dark Element. 

And that work well I can basically kill mob by just spamming Turn Undead and Black Rain with Kevin throwing is tech in.

However I'm hitting a wall with Jagan currently the lack MT Mind Up is a huge problem for this fight, Jagan's Ancient 2 does crazy damage and he can cast Black Curse on me and his mobs are making things worse especially that freaking Bloody Wolf.

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Rogue, Grand Divina, Dervish is interesting. Protect Up is a must for Rogue and Angela, and being dependent on invert armor prevents Dervish from using more defensive armor when he needs it. But Kevin and Hawk would make great use of all the sabers and Fireblaze; this team would be both a physical and magical powerhouse. And I would only need to keep two types of scales stocked; Kevin would use them as Power and Mind Down and someone else as Power and Mind Up. I could only really do this for boss fights, since the defensive effects alone would cost at minimum five scales.... At least I'd have a purpose for all that late game money! I can predict the Dervish build being difficult; with competition between Whitelight Ring, Fireblaze, Sage Stone, invert armor, and elemental weakness/resistance equipment, there would be a lot of compromise. Maybe I ditch the Sage Stone at least and put stat points into Intelligence? Plus, no Mind Up for random fights in the late game might occasionally be in issue (not as much as no Protect Up would be, though).

Just checking: Dervish keeps Bloody Wolf and Suzaku Sky Dance in this mod, correct? I have never played dark Kevin to the end.

Also, what quest do people recommend? I have only been to the final areas of Hawk/Lise's quest so far in this mod; with this team, I could choose any of the three. I think Nesouk commented that the Dragon Emperor is a bit of a letdown compared to Archdemon, but I'm curious about Kevin/Carlie's quest. Of the three final areas, Mirage Palace definitely looks the coolest, and I like the mirage theme. How do the final areas and bosses compare among the three quests in terms of difficulty? Have they been rebalanced in this mod?

Edited by rpschamp

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49 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Also, what quest do people recommend? I have only been to the final areas of Hawk/Lise's quest so far in this mod; with this team, I could choose any of the three. I think Nesouk commented that the Dragon Emperor is a bit of a letdown compared to Archdemon, but I'm curious about Kevin/Carlie's quest. Of the three final areas, Mirage Palace definitely looks the coolest, and I like the mirage theme. How do the final areas and bosses compare among the three quests in terms of difficulty? Have they been rebalanced in this mod?

Actually between Archdemon and Dragon Emperor, Dragon Emperor was IMO the hardest route, Dragon Hole is waaay harder than Dark Castle, it is fill with the most annoying ennemies in the game, and my god that last room before Korren where the game goes God of War mode giving you dozens of ennemis to fight with no break is a nightmare on hard.

Archdemon route had hardest sub final bosses, Jagan and Bigieu are both really brutal, Darkshine Knight and Korren are the most fun tough since they almost force you to use counter which I think was nice (altough Korren being able randomly cast MT Deathspell is bullshit, but sadly base on what Praetarius said nothing can be done about it).

Dragon Emperor looking back is actually the hardest final boss between him and Archdemon, I looked down on him back then cause I had the perfect counter with Light Lise, but the fact that almost ALL of his AoE spells give you all the debuff at once makes him very dangerous, it's just impossible to keep all buff set you need to at least be able to keep the Mind Up active to stand a chance which without MT Mind Up isn't gonna happen, and if it's like Vanilla he has the highest HP of the 3 final bosses which cement him as a huge war of attrition.

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Very interesting. From anyone who has tried it, is the Mirage Palace route still much easier than the other two? I'd love to try it, I just don't want to play all the way to the end of the game and be stuck without a challenge. I always thought it had the coolest concept of all three final areas, and Dark Lich is pretty cool visually with the shifting backgrounds.

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