BTB

Brave New World 1.8.5 is now available!

103 posts in this topic

Right, there was some discussion in chat on how to balance Dice, which happened because X-Fight was going to finally receive it's damage penalty (it currently doesn't) so Setzer would need some better sources of X-Fight damage, all of which is happening because of Anima breaking the game with Shadow and X-Fight.

Such a change will hurt Setzer's Avenger / Man Eater output, and while something needs to be done about that, that's not why I'm posting.

*************

After spending time with Dice until I'm sick out the wazoo, I've found that there is no way to get Dice doing halfway decent damage with just two Dice. Double damage on same dice rolls (dubs) ain't doing it, equal chances of all sides ain't doing it, heck, even a higher chance of a 5 or 6 on a roll then 1-4 ain't doing it. Nada. Zip. Zilch. The average multiplier Setzer gets for any of this is just too low to be useful.

So, before I go to bed, and to avoid this getting lost in chat: the Dice need to roll 3 dice, just like Fixed Dice rolls 3 dice, if it wants any chance whatsoever of being useful. We'll have to figure out what penalties it receives to avoid being op early on.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And this is why you don't do math at midnight. I forgot that Dice have an innate x2 multiplier.

3 Dice is not needed. Rather, you need to do two things.

  • Change the odds of getting individual numbers such that 5 and 6 have a higher chance then 1-4. (I used 1/4 for D5 and D6, and 1/8 for the D1-D4).
  • The multiplier gets doubled on doubles (dubs).

That should be enough to make Dice useful without being op. Course, it still needs testing to insure I didn't make a mistake or that FFVI isn't being FFVI.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

here is a program for testing some different variables. note that it uses the current odds for dice rolls. dicelevel and fixeddicelevel refer to setzer's level; thought one might want to change them independently. http://anydice.com/program/c2c1

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Played the traditional way, like a lategame tank who attacks with GP Toss and heals with RegenX? Not good anymore. Both GP Toss & RegenX have been nerfed - nowadays, the numbers are too low to play him like a Paladin-esque tank. Also, Slots are no longer random, so GP Toss loses one of its big advantages over magic Setzer.

Also, a buff to Dice means stiffer mid-WoR competition. Lastly, I'm 90% that Daryl's Soul + Fixed Dice outputs better (long-term) average damage than GP Toss.

Played as an alternative "Bank" Setzer? Probably fine. Setzer doesn't need pure Seraph ELs and Shoat's mostly useful for WoR Slots (and Cure 3, a little bit). If most of your offense is coming from Shoat, Doom, Daryl's Soul with either Daggers or Fixed Dice, and WoB Slots (Daryl's Tomb included, lulz), then Bank Setzer can work fine with either pure Seraph or Seraph/Starlet. Latter's probably better actually - Setzer doesn't need that much HP / MP to get his job done, whereas extra stamina will give him better status & magic defense, alongside the utility of a better RegenX.

I've all ready got to update my Build Reference Text for information on the 1st respec. Might update the Setzer section while I'm at it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, seraph9888 said:

here is a program for testing some different variables. note that it uses the current odds for dice rolls. dicelevel and fixeddicelevel refer to setzer's level; thought one might want to change them independently. http://anydice.com/program/c2c1

For the record, this is what my Dice suggestion looks like.

http://anydice.com/program/c2cc
 

Be aware that both of these links do NOT contain any bonuses if (Fixed) Dice rolls dubs / trips.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finished WoB. First time I've played Locke, Celes, and vig Terra team on Floating Continent.

Warming up to vig Terra. Morph wrecked face. Ultros, Chupon, and Atma never knew what him 'em. Poor Atma thought it'd be a good idea to Berserk Terra. > : ) Also warming up more to dual-wielding - Elec Sword + Rising Sun combo for Locke & Terra worked quite well for most randoms on the Floating Continent. Kirin on Locke helps with dual-wielding. With Ramuh, I've kept Locke on Shiv duty b/c he's too frail with dual-wielding, but lacks damage with sword + shield. Kirin Locke's lack of vigor was noticeable against Atma, but he's still being awesome (1000 HP - he's like Cyan). Locke's best WoB build is probably lots of Kirin with some Ramuh. Celes & Shadow are still Celes & Shadow.

Little to say about Sealed Cave thru Thamasa. Brought Locke into the Cave for the first time in my life - Flametongue + Demonsbane kicked butt. Also tried learning the enemies on Mt. Thamasa for once in my life. Oh, and broke Ultros' script with Locke's Elec Sword yet again. Much as I hate Ultros III, that script should really be fixed.

The "Start of Battle ATB" speed patch seems to be working. Didn't really pay attention, but Locke & Shadow seemed to move first most often on the FC, while Terra tended to move last. I'm going to run pure speed on Gau and Shadow in the WoR. That should give some good feedback on how well the speed patches work.

Whelp, early WoR is next. Have no idea what order I'll do things in the WoR either - probably an early Ancient Castle to play stam Strago & Omega Locke early.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, looking at it, it looks like Terra's the only character who has two distinct builds for the FC. She can either play glass cannon attacker (vig with Morph), or bulky healer with wind magic (mag/stam). Everyone else either doesn't have the espers yet for different builds, their builds play exactly the same until the mid-WoR, or one build is significantly better than the other.

Locke: Without Phoenix, the only build in town is Kirin + Ramuh, with either "dual-wield either ele swords & boomerangs, conserve your healing MP" or "healing shiv + shield".

Edgar: vig & mag play the same. mag has good attacks with Ele Sword Jumping but no Defib / Battery, vig Edgar still has blasters for randoms & good magics, same armor, similar HP, etc.

Sabin: stam Sabin lacks Chakra, and consensus on Mantra is that's it's not that great.

Celes: vig Celes doesn't really do anything that mag Celes can't all ready do. Unlike the glass cannon esper and the treasure hunter, mag Celes all ready has Bolt & Ice, with the MP to use her spells and pure magic espers for magic growth.

Cyan: stam Cyan is better right now. vig Cyan doesn't really offer anything interesting.

Everyone Else: lol

EDIT: Edited for clarity. I'm talking about build distinction on the Floating Continent, not necessarily build viability

Edited by thzfunnymzn
Clarification
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Umm, Phunbaba failed to Hurricane away two people. Edgar had all ready landed, so I saw no reason for this behavior. Is this bug all ready known?

Also, why is Shoat's summon attack called "Hurricane"? Wasn't it called "Demon Eye" or something like that? Isn't "Hurricane" the name of Phunbaba's attack?

*******

Leap Anywhere is so good. Getting Gau's WoR Rages was so much quicker. Just drag Gau around for the WoR Errands and you'll quickly & easily snag 'em all. Even got Phoenix Cave & Mt. Zozo Rages, though I only looted the Wing Edge. The Harpy & Trolls went berserk when they saw me and pwned me with crazy Cyclonic, Red Talon, and Lulz spam. Died twice just trying to get that stupid Rage. Yeesh.

Dragon + a Bone weapon + Fenrir ELs is a huge spike in power for Gau, kinda like Bum Rush is for Sabin. My characters were doing ~1500-2000 beforehand, excluding weaknesses. Now, I've got two juggernauts who push 3k with each attack. Yeesh.

Does make me wonder if maybe the location of Gau's Rages should be modified if Leap Anywhere is going to become official. Having Gau's remaining Rages all come right at the beginning means that Gau all ready has his "best" Rages. So he has no more room to grow as a character & the lesser WoR Rages are immediately filed away as "filler or niche." Combined with the sudden BPow jump from Bones, magic damage jump from Magic Bone & Blizzard Orb, and raw speed from Fenrir, it also means Gau sees a humongous spike in power right here.

*******

Oh, and Setzer's Blackjack spam has definitely been the backbone of my AoE offense. Was hoping to play around with a stronger Dice and X-Fight, but looks like it ain't happenin' anytime soon. Oh well. Celes is still a healer that relies on elemental control for damage (haven't hit lvl.24 for Ice 3 yet), though there's thankfully enough weaknesses to go around. Would snipe Holy Dragon early for Merton shenanigans, but until I get full Fire resistance, there's no point.

Also remember why I hate the Fanatic's Tower. Don't have Reflect Rings & high mg.def? Die first turn from tier-3's & Flare spam. The randoms here are harder than the Magimaster. Frustrating, because if I don't grind here, I'm going to reach Kefka's Tower with an EL of, what, ~18? Whereas if I grind at the Fanatics', I can get nice & high ELs without gaining too many levels. Le sigh.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I once proposed giving the peepers in WoR high sp just for being able to grind ELs without affecting level as much.

Leap Anywhere would pretty much have to be accompanied by a balance pass. This was discussed moreso for the IMTRF rages, but WoR it also applies as well.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Umm, Phunbaba failed to Hurricane away two people. Edgar had all ready landed, so I saw no reason for this behavior. Is this bug all ready known?

Yeah, it does that sometimes. Consider it a feature.

Quote

 

Also, why is Shoat's summon attack called "Hurricane"? Wasn't it called "Demon Eye" or something like that? Isn't "Hurricane" the name of Phunbaba's attack?

Because it *rocks* you ;)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nowea said:

I once proposed giving the peepers in WoR high sp just for being able to grind ELs without affecting level as much.

Leap Anywhere would pretty much have to be accompanied by a balance pass. This was discussed moreso for the IMTRF rages, but WoR it also applies as well.

I'd honestly like it if, in general, WoR enemies gave high sp. By that point, the player has most of their spells. Also, Celes & Sabin solo means they're going to gain high levels if you don't turn Exp Off. (Of course, if you turn Exp Off, then Celes doesn't have Ice 3 and Sabin doesn't have Chakra, so mag Celes and stam/hyb Sabin are limited. Not that, you know, that's what's currently going on with my file or anything. No sirree, not at all). So there's not much of a downside, but there's certainly some benefit.

That, and the selfish reason of wanting to maximize a build without gaining super high levels. I'd like to hit EL 25 by endgame without grinding so that I feel like my characters have finally fully matured just as they prepare to take on Kefka. Adds another layer to the story / theme, feels good, and ties in with how Brave New World, at its core, is about making each character a unique flower.

 

The IMF is honestly fine with Leap Anywhere methinks. It mostly gives Gau an early Acid Rain & healing rages. But, yeah, Leap Anywhere allows for a re-evaluation of the logic of where Rages are located / earned. Mostly, I'm wanting Gau to have more smooth growth, instead of that sudden spike at the beginning of the WoR.

 

3 hours ago, BTB said:

Yeah, it does that sometimes. Consider it a feature.

Because it *rocks* you ;)

Well, then, Phunbaba got pwned. Morph Fire 3, speedy Revenant, and Bum Rush. Stupid fool didn't stand a chance. Celes just sat around casting Mute and Cure 2.

 

*******

 

Well, looks like I'm going Ancient Castle early to play around with stam Strago. Ain't no way I'm sitting around the whole WoR just to try this guy out. That, and I've identified several areas where I think "support Strago with overkill stamina" could prove useful. Also gonna steal lots of Multiguards for once so that I can get on with spamming Merton. Was gonna do the same for X-Quake Mog, but as it turns out, aside from maybe the Cave to the Veldt and Owzer's Mansion, there's just no use for grabbing Quake early. Sadness. : ' (

Edited by thzfunnymzn
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never had a problem with Gau being overpowered with Learnable Rages in the IMTRF. He was rocking Fighter the whole time anyways (aha). Defender and Onion Knight weren't that useful against the bosses, all told. Maybe Defender on Number (whatever, the mage one) is better than what he could have, but Tek Armor worked perfectly fine for me on that fight anyways.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Mostly, I'm wanting Gau to have more smooth growth, instead of that sudden spike at the beginning of the WoR.

The only way to really do that is to gate the rages behind bosses in some way. Meaning that you'd have a lot of rages in KT.

You can already have the spike in power in the WoR by going and getting the encounters then going back to the Veldt.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ultimately, it's a QoL thing since the first time any rage is available doesn't change whether or not you're forced to backtrack to the Veldt in order to get it.

I wouldn't put any rages in Kefka's Tower since that's too late in the game to give the player new attacks. Something like Ultima is fine because it's a singular attack, not a whole plethora of them.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Nowea said:

The only way to really do that is to gate the rages behind bosses in some way. Meaning that you'd have a lot of rages in KT.

You can already have the spike in power in the WoR by going and getting the encounters then going back to the Veldt.

The way to gate Rages would be to put the applicable formations at the end of a WoR dungeon (if possible). Yes, it's still technically possible for a player to raid the dungeon for early Rages just like they would any other treasure. But, such behavior is heavily discouraged.

For example, if the player has to hike all the way to the Water Dragon's room just to pick up, oh say, the Io Rage (Weapon and Io are palette swaps, so changing Io Rage to Weapon is feasible), then it's heavily unlikely that the player will be grabbing the Io Rage without also completing the whole of Ancient Castle.

I looked at the game's mapping when I thought of this idea some time ago (and also brainstormed where each Rage would go - iow, such a change is feasible, even if my ideas for re-locations aren't the best). IIRC, for many of the WoR dungeons, it is possible to put the applicable Rage only in the last part of the dungeon. Heck, even just spreading the Rages out too many different dungeons is a form of gating Rages. It also means that Gau plays different based off what dungeon order the player does - which is kinda the point, as several other characters must also play differently if they aren't getting to do their own dungeons first. Of course, the "better" Rages would end up in the "later" WoR dungeons. (Might as well use this opportunity to say: make Hidon a Rage. >_>).

Nowea, I know Gau all ready has a spike in power in the WoR by returning to the Veldt. I've done it all of my 20+ times playing this game. I'm advocating re-locating Gau's Rages to undo that sudden spike in power. Because the spike is too large, and because, unlike most other characters, it means Gau suddenly has all of his "best" Rages quite early, which doesn't seem desirable from a design perspective.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTB, there is an error with Rage.

 

Tumbleweed is supposed to be Harvester / !Special, according to the Printme. But, in the actual 1.8.5, it's !Special / Tumbleweed. Just looked in FF3usME, and confirmed with how often Gau is using "Sap" with Tumbleweed.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool, cool.

*******

Been using spd Gau with the new "Starting ATB" patch. It's a very noticeable difference - Gau starts pretty much every fight with a full ATB Gauge. Don't think I have enough speed yet to tell how well the "Speed Nerf" patch is working. That, and Gau's very powerful at the beginning of the WoR thanks to the new weapons & rages - I'll know more about the new speed balance later.

*******

Finished Gogo's Cavern & Mt. Zozo.

Actually paid attention to the strengths & weaknesses of the randoms, like I just now did for the Narshe Caves. Makes it much easier when you use appropriate status effects & weapon equips.

Mt. Zozo, I decided to be cute and have Mog mostly use X-Bio, even for the Wind Dragon fight because I so didn't forget to properly prepare my characters for a more intense, weakness sniping fight, what talk you?. Not bad. Helps that Colossus, Punisher, & Scrapper are all Poison weak. Also wasn't bad for the Wind Dragon fight. (2k vs. Bolt Rod's average of 3k, though Rod procs hate me and never proc). Only needed one Love Sonata during the fight to re-charge MP; so far, Love Sonata seems to be doing its job of re-charging MP.

Desert Aria is still a piece of trash, and I don't understand why people like it. - _ - Terrible Image setter. Couldn't use Morph Wing Edge strats.

My full-on glass cannon build for vig Terra (10 Bismark) worked for the WoB - even for Atma - but it's starting to bite me in the butt now. Terra needed babying with heals, Rerise, Shell, and no Morph in order to survive the fight. Otherwise, dual Wing Edge is pretty decent filler for randoms - she's frail, but on average, she's a little stronger than Bum Rush, even without Hyper Wrist or Floating foes. Had to raid Phoenix Cave & Ancient Castle (+ Colosseum trade) to get both of 'em though, so a bit of an obscure filler weapon.

*******

After Owzer's, it's time for an early Ancient Castle. Then, stam Strago. ^ _ ^

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do keep in mind that Gogo's cave is viewed as a mid to later WoR area, so having the blizzard orb power increase for Gau is definitely a veteran player move. 

I like the idea of shifting some WoR rages to places deeper into the dungeons though. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mishrak said:

Do keep in mind that Gogo's cave is viewed as a mid to later WoR area, so having the blizzard orb power increase for Gau is definitely a veteran player move. 

I like the idea of shifting some WoR rages to places deeper into the dungeons though. 

Umm ... I never used the Blizzard Orb in Mt. Zozo. Gau was smashing things up with Dragon & Defender - spd Defender Gau was a great healer for the Wind Dragon fight. Thanks for the compliment on WoR Rages though. ^ _ ^ I should still have my old notes on what dungeons Rages can be put in - paying attention to which dungeons can have the Rages put into only the very last rooms, or which dungeons have palette swaps of existing Rages.

*******

I did use Sage Stone for Mog in Mt. Zozo. I....I guess for the randoms you could classify it as a veteran move. Maybe, sorta, if you stand on your head, do a little jig, and/or are really concerned about the Colossus random encounter? 8k to Colossus and 3.6k AoE to Scrappers & Punishers is pretty awesome. Problem is that, Colossus aside, the Mt. Zozo randoms are a piece of trash trash. So, the extra damage & reliability over Water Rondo is meaningless. For the Wind Dragon, a better non-boltrod veteran strat would've been Punisher with a Black Belt.

As I said, I was mostly being cute, and giving the new Love Sonata a test run. Early X-Mog, sadly, is just not worth it. (I will also point out that single casting Mog's Magic is especially mediocre, except for setting Poison or Slow. I imagine these two issues are related). I mean, sure, I could give X-Break a whirl in Owzer's Mansion if we really, absolutely, positively need proof that X-Mog struggles early on. But I think we both know the answer to that.

I did want to use X-Quake in Owzer's Mansion. Muscle right through those stupid forced pincer strikes. But I wasn't about to do two later WoR dungeons just for that.

Mostly, I'm a huge X-Mog fan. It's a mediocre to average set-up, but I want to use it, blast it. mag Mog should be the game's premier Wind / Earth nuke, not some weird all-elementalist with pretty wands & girly dances, blast it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all fairness, X-Mog was conceived more as a status-setter than a damage-dealer.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BTB said:

In all fairness, X-Mog was conceived more as a status-setter than a damage-dealer.

O_o

That's.....extremely peculiar. When I first played BNW, I pinned Strago as the person who used X-Magic for status setting. I had in mind Shell & Osmose. I pinned Locke as the X-Magic Healer and Mog as the X-Magic attacker (Quake). One attacker, one healer, one status-setter. I thought it was pretty cool design. Funny how that turned out.

This is also peculiar because now I'm really wondering why you've been so adamant for so many versions (since 1.5?) about not letting Mog have status buffing Magic. Mog does have SlowX, SleepX, Muddle, Imp, and Bio, so, yeah, he's got a lot of debuffs. But...SlowX, SleepX, Muddle, and Bio are all ready AoE. Also, there's very limited use to setting debuffs multiple times in one fight - one debuff is enough to cripple a random (unless you're thinking SleepX + Muddle lategame shenanigans); for bosses, what few debuffs work (Slow) stick once they hit. Meanwhile, pairing X-Haste with X-Break gives a pretty nifty reason to use Sage Stone for setting buffs. X-Mog would open boss fights with Slow & Haste before getting to work attacking - Slow, Bio, and Haste for dragon fights, which starts to look more like what you intended for X-Status Setter.

I mean, I guess we could wait all the way until 2.0 (10 years from now) to expand boss scripts to make status setting X-Magic more useful. You still run into the trouble of all of Mog's debuffs all ready being AoE, and the other trouble of debuffs only needing to stick once.

Maybe you could have Drain set Sap? It's a buff to Ocean Claws, yeah, but then Mog can at least open with Sap (Drain) + Slow (+ Bio).

************

You know what BTB? Just for you, I'll pay attention to X-Mog as a status setter come the late WoR. On top of paying attention to X-Quake and Merton w/ Flameguards x4.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the official changelog for 1.8.6 (COMING SOON):

 • Added new hacks to lessen the effect of speed granting faster characters more turns over time and to increase its effect on the likelihood of getting first strike

 • Added new hacks to allow speed to influence the likelihood of getting rare steals and for successful steal attempts to be treated as "free" actions

 • Added a new hack allowing Gau to Leap on rageable formations outside of the Veldt and removed the scripting behavior where all "dog"-type enemies would forcibly target him

 • Fixed a bug with the "Y-Equip Relics" hack where stat previews for changing equipment would display incorrectly after switching between menus

 • Fixed a bug where the Quartrstaff and Doomstick would crash the game when using MP for critical hits

 • Fixed a bug with Setzer's Dice where the animation would display incorrectly and also crash the game

 • Fixed a bug with X-Fight where the X-Fight penalty and the dual-wield penalty were not stacking

 • The Kagenui now has the correct stats

 • Fixed the incorrect attack priorities on the Tumbleweed rage

 • Fixed the Raiden summon (only accessible via Slots) to be identical to Odin

 • Made a small change to Tiamat's script

 • Added a(nother) hint about fighting Phunbaba to Terra's dialogue

 • Adjusted the encounters near WoR Albrook to prevent solo Celes from getting into unfair fights

Edited by BTB
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.