praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

564 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I would not give her shields, and I would remove Tinkle Rain. Vanadis would be a solution for minimal functionality in healing and sabers, only excelling in buffs, kind of a catch-all for support. Paladin would have the advantage with aggro shields, Anti-Magic, and Magic Shield, making him more useful for magic-oriented teams. Saint Saber is not as good as all four basic elemental sabers, but it's better than any single one of them. I would see these two classes as reasonably well balanced.

I agree though that there's no real need to improve Vanadis. I was offering an alternate take on the class, the elemental warrior or magic knight. My main point was that giving her shields would distract from her role as master cheerleader and conflate her role with Duran's.

Edited by rpschamp
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Posted (edited)

Vanadise's kit is pretty set. Even reverting her buffs to single target won't bring it down too much. Giving her sabers on top of it is pretty much entirely unwarranted. If anything, Star Lancer should be the one to get them to further her as a physical support.

Lise being able to equip a shield is not a numerical buff, but a strategic one. It's a very valuable (and more importantly fun) tool, and keeping it restricted to only Duran limits its applications too much due to party compositions. Don't see it as a buff to Lise, because it is not. So much so that all other of Lise's classes haven't even been mentioned yet, despite the fact they'd also be getting the shields. The perceived problem is not the addition of shields, but Vanadise's kit being too complete in its current iteration.

Having now made progress to the god beasts on that Rogue-Archmage-Vanadise team, I do still believe she's fine like this. Sometimes, Stats speak louder than spells, and Lise's even stat spread ends up hurting her in spots Duran doesn't have to deal with. Furthering her dependence on the Whitelight Ring (of which Duran has none) will also have an influence with how many accessories she has to worry about, Shield now included.

A point could be made that Light Duran should still get something over Light Lise, but Lise being able to equip shields has nothing to do with that and would be very beneficial to team compositions without upsetting some sort of balance between their kits. I believe Lord could get Leaf Saber (Or perhaps Analyse to turn it into some sort of dedicated critical support instead of stepping on Warrior Monk's toes), and Paladin just replace Magic Shield with Mind Up.

To be honest I just feel Magic Shield and Counter Magic should be scrapped or turned into something else.

Edited by Valenhil
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Posted (edited)

I agree; I was thinking a Vanadis/Star Lancer split on recovery spells and sabres would be a great way to distinguish Lise's light classes. I just think the class with the elemental final weapon should be the class that gets the sabres.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by her kit being too complete, but If you think Vanadis is overpowered, just remove Tinkle Rain; she would have recovery options on par with Paladin and Warrior Monk.

I also agree that Magic Shield is a bit of a hodgepodge, but the MP recovery effect is very useful and enables some low intelligence builds. If anything, the spell should be renamed (and its effects maybe reoriented) but I don't think that's possible.

On Lise equipping shields, I will defer to the judgment of players who have completed the game multiple times with Lise and Duran. As a novice player on this mod, shields represent an area where Duran has increased adaptability over Lise. Giving Lise extra options, especially options that change her role, would make me even less likely to choose Duran (unless he gets his Level 1 tech fixed!).

Edited by rpschamp
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15 hours ago, Valenhil said:

To be honest I just feel Magic Shield and Counter Magic should be scrapped or turned into something else.

Partially disagree for Magic Shield it's quite usefull especially for Carlie's Light class, I litterally played Bishop without investing a single point in INT and this spell was one of the reason why, higher MP Pool and MP recover and Stronger Heal Light (at one point I was healing over 700 with Bishop's MT Heal Light), is a huge deal for support class that need a lot of MP for using their support ability but at the same time doesn't get anything from increasing INT, Magic Shield help to not give a damn about INT for Carlie's Light class (since she litteraly gain nothing from INT). It's less usefull for other potential Healer as they get something from INT (Decrease Castime for Kevin, Duran and Lise and stronger Elemental spell + learning spell for Angela).

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Posted (edited)

It's really not as useful as it sounds compared to MP absorption.

And for a conclusion on Lise, I believe with the addition of shields Vanadise would be fine with just the ST buffs, and the other three could still get something extra. That's because even though their kits are very good, this game doesn't reward Lise's even stat spread much so it evens out. What's truly pushes people to use Light Lise isn't her being particularly good, but that people just need the stat buffs.

Excluding Light Lise, this is their current spread:

Def Up: Lord, Paladin, Bishop, Evil Shaman
Mind Up: Warrior Monk, Wanderer, Magus(self), Sage
Power Up: God Hand, Warrior Monk, Magus
Speed Up: Lord, Swordmaster(self), Rogue(self), Grand Divina

As you can see, the problem is not that there's few classes that can use the buffs: it's that there's very few names that show up more than once in this list. This results in there not being even a single combination of three classes capable of covering all buffs without completely forgoing other types of spells without Light Lise, while as far as debuffs go not only are there three other options with complete coverage (dark hawk and necromancer), there's also some duos that taken together also cover all debuffs, like Arch Mage and Rogue, which I'm currently running. To distribute these in a way that actually opens the possibility of replacing Light Lise, there's two points to account for:

1 - Power up and Speed Up are more personal buffs and can easily be added only as self only to some classes that need them

2 - The classes that do get team stat buffs should generally have them in pairs so teams can be properly built between them to have enough coverage. By doing this with only the classes in the above list, several viable combinations should appear.

Here's an attempt:
Def Up: to Grand Divina (instead of Sleep Flower), God Hand, Rogue(instead of Body Change)
Mind Up: to Paladin, Bishop(instead of Magic Shield), Magus not self only,
Power Up: to Lord, Evil Shaman(instead of Ghost, Ghost Road to lv 2), Death Hand(self), Dragonmaster(self)
Speed Up: to Sage(instead of Rainbow Dust), Wanderer(instead of Body Change) Fenrir Knight(self)
 

Edited by Valenhil
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v1.050

  • allowed Lise to equip Red Heat, Thunder God and Gold Shield, buyable in Byzel with her in party
  • Vanadise-Lise no longer learns her buffs MT, only ST
  • increased crit damage factor by luck stat from 110-140 to 115-150
  • increased attack bonus from gear
  • reduced gain from castspeed stat by 7%
  • lowered Gorva's HP and physical defense
  • added a small randomizer program

don't expect much from the last bullet point; I just wanted to practice byte math a bit because I've to deal with that at work a lot soon - and yes, in that language >.>

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Well, despite my previous objections, I'll now be starting a new Lise-led group to take advantage of the shields.

Any description of the randomizer program? (I can't find any files in the zip that I can open with my text editor.)

Also, has anyone been brave enough to run a team without Heal Light? It seems like Moon Saber/Dragon Ring and items may be enough, but I haven't made it as far as the final areas so I'm not entirely sure. Also, some final weapons that run on low HP would benefit from avoiding the post-battle heal.

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randomizer is in a seperate zip, you'll need java installed to run the file

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uploaded a v2 of the randomizer which prevents item shops from potentially getting the same consumable item multiple times and disables exp randomization since that caused underflows

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I'm thinking of starting a two-tank team with Duran and Lise both using shields, to spread the aggro between them. This should distribute the damage more evenly and keep the third member, a caster, even more protected. Let me know if there is anything about aggro mechanics that would disrupt this strategy.

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by itself it should be no problem though I don't know how enemy's spell single target selection would work out then - I guess it should favor character #1 then

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Does the lise shield change require a new game? They're not in Byzel in my current run.

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No it shouldn't.
Shops are recalculated whenever you open them.

You have the shop with accessoires for 525 Luc and armors for 678?

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Sorry, bad thing about playing in 5 different places is it gets hard to keep track of what's patched and what's not.

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Posted (edited)

Going through the Valley of Flames, forget the fire godbeast, these Swordmasters are two-shotting my tanky Lise with their conveniently two-hit attack. They're the real threat here.

In Pedan now, Weapon and armor seeds seem really rare and have a really wide number of possibilities, getting these final class weapons appears to be really grindy.

Edited by Valenhil
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Hello,

can you teach me how do i turn this on ? lol

i was tried snes9x but nothing can run up.

and also i tried to installed the java,but still don't know how to use it :(

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If you have java installed you should be able to just double click that .jar file and then it should open the program's UI.

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Posted (edited)

I apologize for this,

but i m fucking noob for this.

can you give me  more clear guide plz ?

 

 

Edited by nightmare9913256
wrong type
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Posted (edited)

how do i solve "ROM does not seem to valid" when  use java to open or export ROM?

 

Edited by nightmare9913256
for more clear problems
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You need to give it a SD3 rom that already has the Sin of Mana hack applied to it and has no header.

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Oh...

So  i need hack guide for now :(

or can i get the file which you have hacked it?

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@nightmare9913256 -- He is referring to this guide, which is in the file you download to get the patch:

Quote

Seiken Densetsu 3 - Sin of Mana, v1.050
Praetarius

===Patching===

The patch is for an unheadered ROM, use SNESutil or similar to remove an existing header.
NEVER patch over an older version of this hack, get a clean ROM!
Whether the ROM has any other patch (e.g. translation) on it shouldn't matter.
 
Apply the main patch "Seiken Densetsu 3 (J)_sinofmana_v1050.ips" first; you may need LunarIPS for this.
Afterwards you can apply any of the difficulty changers from the "difficulty_changer" folder if you wish, default is set to hard.


The "misc_patches" folder includes some bonus patches.
1) "bonusfight__BlackRabite_Bigieu_DKS"
replaces the random enemies in a dead end room to the right of the very final savepoint with a Black Rabite, Bigieu and Darkshine Knight.

2) "ghostship_savepoint"
allows use of the ghost ship savepoint that leads to savegame corruption if used with only 2 characters. USE AT OWN RISK!

3) "super_happy_funtimes"
The name says it all.

4) "3_player"
Turns on option to use a third human player. Already included in the main patch.

5) "hardcore_death_penalty"
Death that is not removed via Angel Grail now also permanently reduces one random stat. Enables death penalty on all difficulties.

6) "skippable_spell_animation"
Hold the X button an any controller while the spell name is displayed on top to skip the spell animation.
Must be done before the animation starts.

 

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