Vaylen

Sprint Shoes and Ghost Ring

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Hello there, questions regarding these two items.

Ghost Ring turns you undead... What exactly does that mean? Healing items still work(Presumably cure spells won't?)~ And I guess it interacts with drain abilities vs undead. Does it also give instant death immunity?

And secondly, sprint shoes... I was surprised that the item is still in the game. Isn't auto-haste just way too strong of an effect?

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In the original game's code, the only thing that the Relic Ring did was set the "undead" flag, which reversed healing and instant death. Pretty shitty, all things considered. Brave New World expands it to include the full undead package - a quick glance at the Printme will show you what the undead all have in common.

I really don't get the love for Sprint Shoes, honestly. I consider them underpowered as hell, but a lot of people think they're great. *Shrug*

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3 minutes ago, BTB said:

In the original game's code, the only thing that the Relic Ring did was set the "undead" flag, which reversed healing and instant death. Pretty shitty, all things considered. Brave New World expands it to include the full undead package - a quick glance at the Printme will show you what the undead all have in common.

I really don't get the love for Sprint Shoes, honestly. I consider them underpowered as hell, but a lot of people think they're great. *Shrug*

Okay, I'll look into the printme.

Hm? I am sure you have more raw knowledge about the game than I have, but I'd like to hear the reason why you consider them underpowered even.

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Because Haste is a status that you can set with a spell, and the Sprint Shoes don't really give you much in the way of other benefits. They're really only useful for randoms or on a character you have a hard time keeping alive.

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+ Auto-Haste equipment is a way to gain immunity to the Slow status, which is highly useful for some boss fights. Without the universal Sprint Shoes relic, your only sources of Auto-Haste are the Palidor esper (only one person for any given fight) or the Mirage Vest (hard to obtain, obtained late, users are squishy with arguably better endgame armors).

+ HasteX, casting Haste on the party, is only found on squishies, one of who will be locked into Rage for much of a fight. Auto-Haste equipment is a useful way to keep the team hasted for players who don't want to use Shadow.

+ For slow characters in long boss fights, it's not a bad option. Probably especially useful for Vig Terra and Vig Cyan, who probably no longer want Hero Ring because of the Cover status.

- You need an actually high speed stat to start first in randoms. Auto-Haste does nothing. Unless you're expecting bulky randoms or a slow & steady method to randoms, you're probably better off equipping the Zephyr Cape or Stat Stick.

- It competes with relics that are key to certain builds (esp. vigor characters, who always dedicate one relic slot to Power Glove). Also competes with defensive relics, such as the status immunity relics, the Auto-Safe/Shell relics, or an early game Life Bell.

Eh, looks to be in an OK spot to me. Its definitely less useful than its store-bought counterparts in Guard Ring, Wall Ring, Amulet, White Cape, and Spirit Ring, but it has its tactical uses in some boss fights and some general-purpose use on a few characters. I'd worry more about stuff like the Mirage Vest or Stat Stick.

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7 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

+ Auto-Haste equipment is a way to gain immunity to the Slow status, which is highly useful for some boss fights. Without the universal Sprint Shoes relic, your only sources of Auto-Haste are the Palidor esper (only one person for any given fight) or the Mirage Vest (hard to obtain, obtained late, users are squishy with arguably better endgame armors).

+ HasteX, casting Haste on the party, is only found on squishies, one of who will be locked into Rage for much of a fight. Auto-Haste equipment is a useful way to keep the team hasted for players who don't want to use Shadow.

+ For slow characters in long boss fights, it's not a bad option. Probably especially useful for Vig Terra and Vig Cyan, who probably no longer want Hero Ring because of the Cover status.

- You need an actually high speed stat to start first in randoms. Auto-Haste does nothing. Unless you're expecting bulky randoms or a slow & steady method to randoms, you're probably better off equipping the Zephyr Cape or Stat Stick.

- It competes with relics that are key to certain builds (esp. vigor characters, who always dedicate one relic slot to Power Glove). Also competes with defensive relics, such as the status immunity relics, the Auto-Safe/Shell relics, or an early game Life Bell.

Eh, looks to be in an OK spot to me. Its definitely less useful than its store-bought counterparts in Guard Ring, Wall Ring, Amulet, White Cape, and Spirit Ring, but it has its tactical uses in some boss fights and some general-purpose use on a few characters. I'd worry more about stuff like the Mirage Vest or Stat Stick.

Well, haven't gotten far enough so far to worry too much about builds(Just before Zozo - and I remember Zozo was one of the more difficult places in vanilla, so I wonder how this will turn out... I took Celes along cause Slam Dancers).

So it mainly gets ousted by the competition. That's good to know. I'll try to focus on the strength of my characters rather than slapping random haste on them.

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One of the most subtle, but ultimately largest and most important, differences between BNW and vanilla, is that stats are REALLY IMPORTANT in BNW. Every point of stats you give your characters is relevant and noticeable. So putting on a relic whose only stat is +10 block, versus, say, the Zephyr Cape, with 10 block, 10 magic block, 7 speed, and 5 stamina, you are going to really feel the lack of stats. The loss of all those stats to gain the benefit of saving yourself from casting Haste a single time is pretty much only going to be worth it if you're fighting enemies that set Slow.

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Forgot about the Aegis Shield, another piece of auto-haste equipment. Oops. >_<

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Auto-haste is a nice rider effect on another piece of equipment, especially for a squishy character that'll die and get rezzed a lot, but for a relic it's a little underwhelming.

Late game you have better stuff to put in those slots, and early game most characters don't have enough speed to really gain a sizable benefit from being auto-hasted.

 

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In previous versions I played (1.0ish to 1.6ish), I loved Sprint Shoes due to getting to act sooner, taking less damage, etc.  Sprint Shoes were a standard relic on each party member:  Rarely would I swap out the shoes.

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On 26.5.2018 at 1:25 PM, Deschain said:

One of the most subtle, but ultimately largest and most important, differences between BNW and vanilla, is that stats are REALLY IMPORTANT in BNW. Every point of stats you give your characters is relevant and noticeable. So putting on a relic whose only stat is +10 block, versus, say, the Zephyr Cape, with 10 block, 10 magic block, 7 speed, and 5 stamina, you are going to really feel the lack of stats. The loss of all those stats to gain the benefit of saving yourself from casting Haste a single time is pretty much only going to be worth it if you're fighting enemies that set Slow.

On the matter of stats mattering more... While I realize that.. they are hard to quantify.
On their own, I have no idea what 1 Vigor, Stamina or Magic actually does and how much it is worth.
In relation, it is hard to tell how defense compares to evasion(How much defence do I have to get to forego 10 evasion, for example)...
Some stats probably have some magic numbers or diminishing returns at some point(Thinking Evasion, Stamina and Speed).
The stats I have the most trouble to wrap my head around are stamina and defences. Stamina relies on its synergy, but it is hard to tell where it is actually worth it and where its breaking points with percentages and heals are. Not to mention, its passive effects are a bit hard to quantify, too.
Defense stats are varied and probably not a good idea to mix too heavily but focus. But how powerful, say, 10 def or 10 eva are is difficult to say.

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At level 30, 20 extra vigor or magic roughly means about 1000 more damage with an endgame attack. This exact number changes based on enemy defenses, weaknesses, or certain moves like Cyan's Tempest.

For speed, there should be a quantification in the Readme. Something like slow characters having about 4 moves to the 5 moves normal characters get, 6 moves that fast ones get, and 7 moves that Shadow the Hedgehog (100+ speed) gets.

Defense is a fraction. You take [ (255 - Def) / 256 ] % of whatever damage you take. 255 defense means no damage, 0 defense means even little rabbits will mess you up. Now, what that means for each individual enemy attack or any of the inbetween numerical values for Defense, well.....>_>

And, stamina, well........read the Readme and/or just ignore stamina. >_>

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Just now, thzfunnymzn said:

At level 30, 20 extra vigor or magic roughly means about 1000 more damage with an endgame attack. This exact number changes based on enemy defenses, weaknesses, or certain moves like Cyan's Tempest.

For speed, there should be a quantification in the Readme. Something like slow characters having about 4 moves to the 5 moves normal characters get, 6 moves that fast ones get, and 7 moves that Shadow the Hedgehog (100+ speed) gets.

Defense is a fraction. You take [ (255 - Def) / 256 ] % of whatever damage you take. 255 defense means no damage, 0 defense means even little rabbits will mess you up. Now, what that means for each individual enemy attack or any of the inbetween numerical values for Defense, well.....>_>

And, stamina, well........read the Readme and/or just ignore stamina. >_>

Hmm... I assume the dmg formula has level somewhere within it. Think I'll do some testing on dmg numbers, should be doable.(Man, how I wish big overhaul mods would give a target dummy to test stuff with somewhere - for formula and especially for stuff like rage).

Hm, that's defense. How about evasion? Maximum evasion was... 128, correct?


Stamina... It kind of has a lot of small effects that amount to something. But due to the things it does, I am led to believe that small stamina increases might just as well not exist(Aside from scalings).
In other words~ go stamina only if you scale with it, correct?

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Magic damage formulas has level in it, physical damage formula has level squared in it. Sorry, no test dummy enemy. I've generally just calculated everything from using Excel for the past however many years I've been part of this mod's community. Has lead to the discovery of at least one major bug regarding the actual damage formula in the game.

Yes, evasion is out of 128.

Something unmentioned is that, because Defense, Evasion, and Stamina are all fractions, it also means that each point is worth more the more you have. For example, if you have 100 mg.def (so, taking 60% magical damage), in order to half the magical damage you are currently taking (30% damage), you need to get to 175 mg.def. However, if you are at 200 mg.def (20%), then you only need to get to 225 mg.def to half the damage you are taking (10%). So...75 points of mg.def in one case vs. 25 in the other case.

In other words, Defense, Evasion, and Stamina are best when stacked.

Stamina, I contend, still struggles to be more than a filler stat, despite all that's been done for it throughout BNW's life. Stuff like Cover, Counter, or the character specific stuff might be useful, but a some of the other stuff (magic damage variance, sap/poison damage, status evasion) are still kinda just "meh", even when stacked.

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53 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Magic damage formulas has level in it, physical damage formula has level squared in it. Sorry, no test dummy enemy. I've generally just calculated everything from using Excel for the past however many years I've been part of this mod's community. Has lead to the discovery of at least one major bug regarding the actual damage formula in the game.

Yes, evasion is out of 128.

Something unmentioned is that, because Defense, Evasion, and Stamina are all fractions, it also means that each point is worth more the more you have. For example, if you have 100 mg.def (so, taking 60% magical damage), in order to half the magical damage you are currently taking (30% damage), you need to get to 175 mg.def. However, if you are at 200 mg.def (20%), then you only need to get to 225 mg.def to half the damage you are taking (10%). So...75 points of mg.def in one case vs. 25 in the other case.

In other words, Defense, Evasion, and Stamina are best when stacked.

Stamina, I contend, still struggles to be more than a filler stat, despite all that's been done for it throughout BNW's life. Stuff like Cover, Counter, or the character specific stuff might be useful, but a some of the other stuff (magic damage variance, sap/poison damage, status evasion) are still kinda just "meh", even when stacked.

Yeah, running calculations helps. I do that a lot myself.

Hmm, okay. So Stamina is basically a "trash"-stat, except you've got some synergy with it.
I wonder, though... What are the breakpoints of reaching 100% on counter and cover?

Speaking of formulas... Does battle power affect abilities like tool/blitz/bushido or is it only for Fight? Been wondering that since I got Edgar, actually.

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Battle power affects Bushido, but not tools or blitz.

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100% Counter can be reached at, what, 96 stamina? Cover will never reach 100%, as it's a fraction out of 192, and, well, there's a hard cap of 128. Most characters struggle to even hit 90.

Stamina isn't completely trash, but unlike the other stats, it's "general purpose mechanics for all characters" aren't really much of any good. There effect is just too small and too niche; you can do basically the same thing on another build for the same character (see: Thamasa Duo, Gau). It's more something you build if said character has specific stamina-based mechanics that are good. Pretty much, that means either the character has a stamina-based attack or heal, or that the character is a good user of Cover and Counter. The stamina-based damage builds can prove tricky to balance vs. their more straightforward counterparts (see: Terra, Cyan, Setzer).

Battle Power affects Bushido 1, 3, 4, and 7, aka, Cyan's "hit you upside the head with a sword" bushidos. Whereas his fancy magic bushidos or insta-death bushido ignore Battle Power.

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2 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

100% Counter can be reached at, what, 96 stamina? Cover will never reach 100%, as it's a fraction out of 192, and, well, there's a hard cap of 128. Most characters struggle to even hit 90.

Stamina isn't completely trash, but unlike the other stats, it's "general purpose mechanics for all characters" aren't really much of any good. There effect is just too small and too niche; you can do basically the same thing on another build for the same character (see: Thamasa Duo, Gau). It's more something you build if said character has specific stamina-based mechanics that are good. Pretty much, that means either the character has a stamina-based attack or heal, or that the character is a good user of Cover and Counter. The stamina-based damage builds can prove tricky to balance vs. their more straightforward counterparts (see: Terra, Cyan, Setzer).

Battle Power affects Bushido 1, 3, 4, and 7, aka, Cyan's "hit you upside the head with a sword" bushidos. Whereas his fancy magic bushidos or insta-death bushido ignore Battle Power.

Well, that helps. So 90~ish Stamina maximum for cover/counter users. 

In terms of stamina based moves... Is there any more exact information on scalings? It is difficult to make an informed choice without knowing some numbers.

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It's the magic formula, but with stamina in place of magic.

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