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Barnacle_Ed

Character/Job Party Recommendations

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Light Lise has a massive mp+casttime problem - yes, she can fulfill all of that alone but she has to sacrifice a ring slot, needs mp support and time; while she prepares to cast a heal she can't prepare a buff. Needing that one accessoire slot for multitarget could be taken by a more dedicated healer for a heal power ring.
Plus if she is your only healer you have to suffer about another 30% of the game with just item healing where you could have already a healer - you're mostly discussing endgame setups but what about the journey to get there?

And giving her a shield for aggro on top of that might actually be detrimental because she has to stay still to cast for some time.
She basically does a lot of different things at the same time several of which kinda contradict each other.
Need to cast buff <-> need to cast heal (can only cast 1 spell at a time)
Need to stay still to cast <-> need to run around to manipulate mobs.
etc.

some alternatives to cover that with 2 chars (and get some other extras):
Lord + Warrior Monk
Lord + Magus (w/ whitelight ring)
Necromancer with invert armor + any healer

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You make a good point, I think it's easier to think broadly in terms of end game setups than the details of those setups. Personally, I don't like to lead with Vanadis because I prefer having a supporting character cast Heal Light to keep my lead character free. And having Lise in any other position wastes most of her shield strategy. Honestly, I would rank her 3rd or 4th in terms of which Lise classes I think are most effective overall. This is why I think she may be overused; she seems more effective in certain setups at first glance than she actually is.

Spreading out the important buffs and debuffs might do more to attract other setups, but it's not necessary for balance purposes.

Edited by rpschamp
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To be fair tough I don't think Vanadis is her best class sure it's good to have both Buffs and Heal Light on 1 character this is a no brainer, however if you are relying only on her for both healing and buffing she will have to keep up on her own and spend a lot of time at it, that is basically what happened in my Vanadis, Duelist and Arch Mage playthrough against boss fight Lise had no time to do anything else than healing and buffing especially against Dragon Emperor where she could do nothing else than healing and Mind Up for the all fight, this kinda limit the class's potential which is a shame as she has other thing that could be interesting like her Summon with Sabers or her LV3 Tech which is quite powerfull or eve Shield which I find useless on Vanadis since she is constantly casting, hence why I think it's better to spread buffs and Heal Light in a team, and for Heal Light it is easy to do as everyone but Hawk has at least 1 final class with Heal Light. And this is why I consider Star Lancer better, especially with latest update which had make Vanadis's Buff spell ST only forcing her to use Whitelight Ring, Star Lancer keep her spell MT so she has an accessory slot free compare to Vanadis, and having faster cast time means she set the buff faster and can spend more time doing other thing like Marduke, Physical fighting or Aura Wave or who knows.

And you don't actually need all buffs to be honnest, like my man power team only had Def Up and Magic Shield and yet was fine for most of the game, so yeah the thing is on paper having all buffs seems like a no brainer which is why I had taken Lise in my very first playthrough, in the end you don't need all buffs but a first timer is more likely to pick Light Lise for this reason alone cause she is the only character to have all the buffs.

As for Dark Class Lise they feel not as essential cause unlike Light Lise there is 2 alternative to get all debuffs which are Necromancer and Dark Hawk, so with 3 characters that can get all debuff it's way easier to get them without Lise which in the end make her Dark Classes more balance as she is good to have but not essential (tough out of the 3 she is the best to put Invert Armor on to get all buffs as her spells are MT (unlike Black Curse) and don't do Damage (unlike Jutsus) but Invert armor is kinda niche).

6 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

some alternatives to cover that with 2 chars (and get some other extras):
Lord + Warrior Monk
Lord + Magus (w/ whitelight ring)
Necromancer with invert armor + any healer

You need Whitelight Ring for Warrior Monk to for make Mind Up MT, I'm not sold on Necromancer with Invert Armor tough especially to keep up with Boss that can debuff you often (again Dragon Emperor).

Edited by Nesouk
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One aspect of Vanadis where she definitely beats Star Lancer is her sprite. Gold, magenta and teal are much more compelling than Star Lancer's basic sky blue and pink. Plus, once sabered up, she can MT damage against both physical and magical defense better than any of Lise's other classes, as long as she isn't busy healing. I think her best role is as a secondary healer and reliable MT damage dealer.

Edited by rpschamp
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Well on the subject of sprite it's honnestly purely subjective personnaly I prefer Star Lance over Vanadis ^^.
My problem with Vanadis's Freya is the Chibiko effect and the half XP penalty from it, I know it was worse in the vanilla game but that doesn't change the fact that I just don't want to risk losing half the XP just for using an AoE, this is honnestly an annoying side effect when you want to do MT Damage as it is not possible to keep track of ennemies remaining HP, IMO since this is the only Lise's summon that can be buff through other mean than Stats, Mind Up and Mind Down that effect should be remove I think that would encourage people to use Freya more, and would give another good thing for Vanadis.

By the way I'm giving a shot to the Femme Fatales formation, decide to go a different set up than yours see if they can be played in a different way and choose Star Lancer, Necromancer and Grand Divina, almost reach the God Beasts, so far the hardest fight was by far Bill and Ben they are nightmare for this team especially once they split up, I end up having to cheese them by using my allies's corpses to block them which suprisingly works and is hilarious to watch XD, also try the Curse upgrade.... a fucking mistake never do it again it turns Bill and Ben into Shadow Dive spammers, however I can now confirm that the Curse completly reflect the Jutsus and Shuriken and I think some of Light Hawk spell like Arrow so this isn't something exclusive to Archdemon.

Also try the curse on Lugar which while effective make this fight a fucking mess, he was spamming Moon Saber, Energy Ball and Protect Down for some reasons and occasionnaly throwing a tech and some punch, I think hitting himself makes him go nuts XD. As for the other bosses basically :

-Full Metal Huger : The lack of physical power make this fight dangerous as it's harder to overcome his healing, making the fight longer as a result.
-Jewel Eater : Actually this guy is not an issue to me anymore, just grid Bullette's Scales from Ogre Boxes, really Bulette's Scales makes a huge difference in this fight, was able to first try him with not of the girl dying.
-Tzenker : Non issue this team stomp her, especially since both Light Angela and Lise resist Wind.
-Genova : The most dangerous thing here is if the Shapeshifter turn into Lise and decide to spam her LV2 tech which is FST and combine with Genova's AoE and Power Up can make this fight quite hard.
-Machine Golem : Curse upgrade is extremely effective here, with Protect Up and Speed Up for defensive purpose.
-Gildervine : Will forever be the easiest boss in the game both Angela and Carlie can destroy him with Ghoul and Fireball, compare to man power team the first phase is even easier with both of them having MT, it also happen that I learn Black Curse just before him so I put that into good use ^^.

As for how I play the team :

-Star Lancer : For now I found a fun set up, with Sage Stone, Shield and MP Steal weapon, this is quite a good set while waiting to learn all her spells before investing into INT and before getting the Helm that reduce cast time and her final weapon, she can cast a buff instantly then just has to hit an ennemy 2 or 3 time to get enough MP back for casting another buffs, all while distracting the ennemies from Carlie and Angela with a Shield, plan to use her mostly as a a buffer who can put some physical damage, once I'm confortable enough with her Spell cast time I will invest toward STR and AGL cause this team lacks physical damage.

-Necromancer : Must say one downside is she takes quite a long time to learn Black Curse (LV44 at best), I'm still waiting to learn Black Rain (have to wait LV51 for it now) so I'm not set on how I gonna play her, Black Curse is definitly a must for boss fight not as pratical on mobs tough, it also cost a lot MP however so I think I definitly gonna get Rune Earrings for her to negate this issue, otherwise since I plan to invest a lot in AGL I equip here with the weapon that take AGL for damage calculation, might be good for getting some Physical damage when needed, for now she is mostly an ST elemental sniper as she can exploit all weaknesses but ST only outside of Holy Ball and even has a strong Non-Elemental spell with Great Demon.

-Grand Divina : The wait for Heal Light is thankfully not as long as Vanadis (LV39 for Grand Divina VS LV43 for Vanadis), she need Whitelight Ring to get Heal Light MT tough as well as Speed Up, still hasn't learn Double Spell yet, her LV1 spell are solid good damage and fast to cast, Evil Gate to set Curse and she with Necromancer sniping are very efficient duo for mob cleaning with Star Lancer ehancing them with Mind Up, just unlock Transshape will give a shot to that Shield wielder + Transshape combination, I'm looking forward to get the Sabers with her Final Weapon.

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Thorns are generally no good against bosses who counterattack frequently. Though I'm kicking myself a little for unequipping Magatama before the Machine Golem fight; I just wanted to reduce any counterattacks as much as possible, but from your success it seems like it does more good than harm.

This team in general has problems with bosses that hit hard against physical defense. Dolan was my biggest problem, by far. For Bill and Ben, the best you can do is use your shield to keep pulling them away from your casters while your casters focus on killing one after the other with single-target spells. It helps to get a little lucky that they don't cast Thunder Jutsu 50 times. I found the second fight more manageable than the first, but not by much. It would be great to figure out a way to reliably kill them before they split. Also, I probably had an easier time with Bill and Ben using dark Lise since they can use jutsus to easily mess with your stat ups but could do nothing to remove my stat downs, while I could just remove their stat downs with Stardust Herbs. This way I could maintain a constant stat advantage against them.

Edited by rpschamp
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12 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Thorns are generally no good against bosses who counterattack frequently. Though I'm kicking myself a little for unequipping Magatama before the Machine Golem fight; I just wanted to reduce any counterattacks as much as possible, but from your success it seems like it does more good than harm.

This team in general has problems with bosses that hit hard against physical defense. Dolan was my biggest problem, by far. For Bill and Ben, the best you can do is use your shield to keep pulling them away from your casters while your casters focus on killing one after the other with single-target spells. It helps to get a little lucky that they don't cast Thunder Jutsu 50 times. I found the second fight more manageable than the first, but not by much. It would be great to figure out a way to reliably kill them before they split.

Well Thorn work against Lugar cause he spend more casting Buffs (even if he already set them) and Protect Down instead of doing actual damage, so thorn help just make the fight kinda messie.
I use Thorn for Bill and Ben cause I just wanted to see if the Jutsus are truly reflected from any oppenent and not just Archdemon, after that test I only for the first phase where he is alone, the second fight was worse for me they hit really hard in the second fight and not having debuffs yet is an issue, admitadly I should probably have farm Slime's Eye or Bottles of Ashe would have make this fight way easier, only to reliably kill them before they split is tossing throwable items until they die I don't think there is any other method, but the fact that they counter every 2 spells by Shadow Dive makes Magic kinda hard to use against them.

Dolan is my worst ennemy in this mod I still really don't like him and how you can basically die cause the game decide to be an ass to you, tough the man power team did pretty well against him, I'm definitly not looking forward to him with this team. Also on that subject test the Shield + Transshape combo a bit it seems to work pretty damn well, the only issue is it's hard to tell when Transshape effect is over as sometime the character visually transparent but has in fact come back to normal.

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The main advice I can give for the ladies against Dolan is to get your physical defense in order - the Maia armors worked for me. Both of your casters have element neutral spells, so just chip away and use Lise to cancel Spiral Moon and try to stay alive.

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Well I'm not on Dolan yet usually I do him as the third or fourth god beast, so we will see how he goes once I get to him.

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Well Dolan beaten still the cheapest boss of the game wasn't worse than with other team tough, thing that can screw you over are the same :

-His physical attack with the HP Reduce from Spiral Moon, his instant-kill if it crit.
-His Half Vanish + Spiral Moon combo if guaranteed death on the target if the game doesn't let you open the menu.
-Still possible to die due to the game not loading your LV3 tech

So since he resist everything and I don't have Anti-Magic I decide to just give up on magic casting and focus on melee damage, I must say giving the weapon that take AGL for Damage calculation on Necromancer was definitly a good move, Agility is so important for her for Black Rain and Cast Time so I invest a lot a lot in it as a result she currently does better physical damage than Lise xD (was hitting Dolan for 50-60 per hit and around 220 for her LV3 tech which is pretty good for a suppose mage), and thanks to having a Shield Lise is always the target from Dolan's Physical and Half Vanish so at least who is probably gonna die so my strat as follow :

-Lise set Power Up, Mind Up, Protect Up and Aura Wave on herself and Carlie, I control her at the beginning while Carlie is casting Black Curse then I take control of Carlie.
-Carlie end up being the main damage dealer once she has set Black Curse, thanks to Lise's shield I know she isn't gonna get caught in the deadly combos mention earlier so she isn't gonna lost her buff soon.
-Angela was my main healer, for Howl and Graviton Press a single Item Seed with the Druid Cane is enough, one good thing is Dolan act pretty much in a set pattern so Spiral Moon is predictable the challenge is to star casting Heal Light a little before Spiral Moon and the Heal Light should be cast a little after Spiral Moon. Using Tree Spirit Ring for MP management and she is also my emergency tech user if Dolan happen to do Energy Ball then in guard stance.

Using Angel's Grail when Lise die (she then as to rebuff herself), and keeping track of Dolan's patterns which are as follow :

-Pattern 1 : Energy Ball > Howl > Spiral Moon
-Pattern 2 : Body Change > Physical attack/Graviton Press > Physical Attack/Graviton Press > Energy Ball > Body Change (come almost instantly after Energy Ball) > Half Vanish > Spiral Moon (come almost Instantly after Half Vanish, mashing Menu Button might give you chance to save Lise with Item but not guaranteed)
-Pattern 3 : Energy Ball > Guard > Spiral Moon

Sometime in the middle on Pattern 1 and 2 he put himself into a guard stance but isn't actually protected, also cast Moon Saber at around 20-25% HP left, but that doesn't matter it's really just to indicate you that you're almost done.

Yeah I lost so much time on this fucking boss that I ended up knowing him by heart.

EDIT : Have a question about the armors that revive at the cost of all your MP, when your character survive an attack this way, does he keep the buffs he had before the fatal attack ? Cause I think of giving this kind of armor a shot especially for my Necromancer since I give her Rune Earring she doesn't use her MP for spell casting, but I would like to know if getting revive this way still require to rebuff or not.

Edited by Nesouk
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5 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Sometime in the middle on Pattern 1 and 2 he put himself into a guard stance but isn't actually protected, also cast Moon Saber at around 20-25% HP left, but that doesn't matter it's really just to indicate you that you're almost done.

actually this fake defending is his aggro reaction - theoretically meant as a way to buy some time before spiral moon

5 hours ago, Nesouk said:

EDIT : Have a question about the armors that revive at the cost of all your MP, when your character survive an attack this way, does he keep the buffs he had before the fatal attack ? Cause I think of giving this kind of armor a shot especially for my Necromancer since I give her Rune Earring she doesn't use her MP for spell casting, but I would like to know if getting revive this way still require to rebuff or not.

status effects, buffs and debuffs should still stay active

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1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

actually this fake defending is his aggro reaction - theoretically meant as a way to buy some time before spiral moon

status effects, buffs and debuffs should still stay active

Well if that's the intention it does work I happen to miss my timing on the Heal Light because of Dolan wasting time by faking defense wasting 9MP for nothing, which mean Magic Walnut if Grand Divina doesn't have at least 18MP

OK That's good to know, will not get it yet tough cause it cost quite a lot (32k Luc is no joke).

Also on subject on trying stuff out, I try equipping Earth Armlet my goal was to make monster pop up at LV60 earlier to get W/A Seed earlier, it does work 6 Earth Armlet increase monster's LV by 12, don't have the exact LV but this mean could get W/A Seeds this way maybe even before the first God Beast, to bad I didn't think about that earlier now they are LV62 jump at LV74 with Earth Armlet as a side effect however monsters gives massive XP, I'm LV62 and I get 50k from just 1 LV74 monster, which make me think of my issue with Vanadis's Freya this could solve the issue and possibly turn Vanadis into a good character for Levelling and farming W/A Seed early getting half XP for such high value isn't that big of a deal as oppose to turn ennemies into Chibiko to reduce how much damage they deal while doing damage at the same time, next time I'll play Vanadis I might try doing this. 

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