Who's your MVP?

[thzfunnymzn 86]

On 12/16/2017 at 11:05 PM, GamingFiend said:

because Stamina goes so well with HP, and how effective really is magic defense and massive regen ticks without a big hp pool to back it up?

+1.

Not to mention that boosting one's HP leads to massive regen ticks just as / faster than stamina does (no HP booster / HP booster).

On 12/16/2017 at 11:05 PM, GamingFiend said:

I certainly find that Strago would be incredible if Odin was a Hp/Stam

+1.

[thzfunnymzn 86]

So, WoB Tier Lists are a lot simpler than WoR, but I figured I might as well. I'm ignoring any area where a character is forced. This is all 1.8.6. I'll try and mention areas where I think 1.9 might change a rank. Probably a lot of mistakes here.

Terra, Narshe Fight - D(amsel in Distress)

Vig Terra, Floating Continent - B. Solid fighter with heals, Storm, & Morph.

Unicorn Terra, Floating Continent - B(+/-). Bulky healer with Storm & Break. Outclassed by Seraph Celes & Seraph Setzer though.

Maduin Terra, Floating Continent - C(+/-). Straight inferior to Unicorn Terra. Not terrible, but not great. Lacks bulk. (I'm presuming the player took few Unicorn ELs).

Tritoch Terra

Locke, Narshe - Zozo - C. There's some important stealables, but overall, he's a fairly average thief. Not all that impressed with dual Butterflies / Full Moons.

Kirin Locke, Late WoB - B+/A-. Solid paladin. Speedy too. Lacks Cyan's Empowerer (& Dragon) though. Still a really nice paladin.

Vig/Spd Locke, Late WoB - D. Too frail without Kirin investment, especially when forced to team with Te/St/Re or with Shadow. (Kirin + Ramuh is same as Kirin. Ifrit + Kirin is probably a C or something).

Phoenix Locke

Edgar, Narshe Fight - IMF - A+. Best character here. Only thing preventing a perfect is weak ST damage & no healing. Still A+ though.

Golem Edgar, Late WoB - A-. Bulky, has Golem, has good magics, can sword jump, still has Blasters. Golem is significant - 1.9's Golem nerf will drop this rank.

Siren Edgar, Late WoB - B+. Not significantly different from Golem Edgar, really. Lower rank b/c of lower bulk, but early speed is nice.

Stam Edgar, Late WoB - B/C? Inferior to Golem build, but it's still Edgar. I don't think 1.9 will change Unicorn Edgar's WoB rank.

Hyb Edgar, Late WoB - A-/B+. Golem & Siren builds ain't significantly different, so hyb Edgar is clearly about where they're at.

Sabin, Narshe Fight - IMF - A. Second best character here, and solid compliment to his brother (ST damage & AoE control). Early game is Figaro Bros. game.

Vig Sabin, Late WoR - A-. Not as powerful as early game, but still has Golem & Suplex (slow) with good HP. Golem is significant - 1.9's Golem nerf will drop this rank (moreso than Edgar's rank too).

Stam Sabin, IMF - Floating Continent - C. Straight inferior to vig Sabin, lack of HP really hurts. Still has Suplex & Golem though. (Remember this build being better in earlier versions).

Hyb Sabin - Built purely as vig Sabin right now. He hybridizes later in the WoR, when he gets Chakra.

Celes, Narshe Fight & Zozo - C. Healbot. Not a bad role, but with Dried Meats, not a necessary role either. 1.9's new flails may improve her rank.

Fighter Celes, Floating Continent - C. Not bad, but not great. Strictly inferior to mag Celes. 1.9's new flails should improve her rank. New Cover/Counter should help too.

Magic Celes, Floating Continent - B+/A-. Great magic selection for the Floating Continent. Speed is nice too. Best to take mostly Seraph ELs.

Hyb Celes, Floating Continent - ??. Never played. Logically, somewhere in the range of her two main builds. May be too early to build a hyb Celes though.

Cyan, Narshe Fight - IMF - B(-). Gets significantly better with Kirin ELs, but for most of this time, he's a fairly average fighter.

Stam Cyan, Late WoB - A(+). It's stam Cyan.

Vig Cyan, Late WoB - C-. Lack of bulk hurts, as does the high defense stats of a lot of FC bosses. Still better than vig+spd Locke though.

Shadow, Zozo - B+/A-. Pricey, but high damage + Smoke Bombs is nice. Drops a bit if you forget Smoke Bombs though.

Gau, Vs. Dadaluma - A. Conjurer Rage is highly desirable.

Gau - C+/B-. Frail, but Brawler & Cephalid are nice. Gets better as the WoB progresses.

Spd Gau

Mag Mog, Late WoB - B+. Dances are in their heyday. Biggest weakness is lack of HP ELs, but he's naturally bulky enough to be work.

Vig Mog

Mag Setzer, Late WoB - A-. Seraph is better early on, but it's still Setzer. Why the high rank? Well...

The Bank, Late WoB - A+. Bulky healer with spammable Black Omen? Why, yes, he is overpowered. Only a lack of buffs prevent a perfect rank. 1.9 will drop him a little bit. Not being able to use Slots drops him by a lot.

Mag Strago, Floating Continent - C(-). Frail, and lacks his fabled support skillset. Still has Holy Wind, Aqua Rake, and Blowfish though. Rod Strago is more of a B- though, b/c of how powerful Rods are at this point.

Stam Strago

Mag/Spd Relm, Floating Continent - C+. Frail, but Sketch is a good command right now. Also has Rerise (and, soon, Life and Stop). Best to take a mix of Zoneseek & Ifrit for MP & speed.

Stam Relm

Hyb Relm - Can't hybridize until Starlet (stamina).

Gogo

Umaro

Edited December 21, 2017 by thzfunnymzn

[ShadowMoses 11]

I picked Locke, not because i think he is the best character or has the biggest potential, but because he contributed more than any other character and he was my most dependable damage dealer. his damage output was coming in at just a bit more than morphed Terra and he dodged most attacks, survived a lot he didn't dodge.

[BTB 279]

Locke actually topped the old MVP poll we had for the longest time. It's really interesting to see how the ides have shifted.

[thzfunnymzn 86]

I'm not surprised to see Sabin at the top. He carries the early game alongside his brother, has superb tools for the late WoB (Golem, Slow + Muddle Suplex) that continue to be useful in the WoR, and then snags his ultimate blitz quite early. Simple, easy to use, but very strong; great for newbies. Veterans love him too, with things like Chakra, elemental claws + berserk, or a Terrato build. From his introduction with beating down Vargas & Ultros and his scenario being the most important, all the way through the mid-WoR, he's superb. He only really "falls apart" for the final dungeon. Even then, he's not bad, just reduced to merely average.

Still tempted to switch my vote to him. Only holding back b/c I dislike stam Sabin. >_>

Surprised Locke's so much lower than last time. Would figure he'd still be quite high, thanks to being the game's best healer. Not surprised to see Celes so high up. Am surprised to see Terra so high up. Maybe it's because I haven't played Omega Terra, but I've never considered Terra a contender for MVP.

Edited January 21 by thzfunnymzn

[JohnFuklaw 12]

I'm on my 3rd playthrough of BNW now.

The first time I used Shadow with pure speed investment the most, especially against certain elemental dragons with the rogue cloak.

The second time my favorite character was mage Mog with the Sage Stone, especially for dual-casting quake/break and throwing muddle and slow x around.

Right now my favorite is Stamina/HP Celes tanking, throwing ??? at poor unsuspecting encounters, countering w/ omega weapon, and generally playing a supportive role with the speed from the Crusader ELs and her great grey spells.

[Nesouk 33]

So gonna do quick review of the build I used in my playthrough so :

Terra : Build her with mostly Maduin and a little Unicorn until I get Tritoch in which I put the remaining EL, she hits really hard with Magic, tank decently and is easy to heal due to Morph also increasing the healing she receives (MP regeneration quite usefull with Edgar's Mana Battery)

Celes : Well did go for an Hybrid build mixing Ramuh, Shiva and Seraph it ends pretty well quite hard to kill, can hit Hard with both physical and Magic and have some good support option, also the Merton + 4 Flamegards set up is fun to use ^^

Locke : Give him mostly Ramuh and Ifrit's EL and the rest on Phenix, a good support but he lacks some MP recovery option, he is definitly the best of the 3 potential Sage Stone users, and has enough Vig to get some good damage.

Edgar : He is the only character I reset in WoB I used him as a Dragoon was usefull but I wanted to try him as a supportive Tank mixing some Unicorn and Siren EL but he get his best support tools (Defibrillator and Mana Battery) in WoR, so good support, good tanking, can deal good damaging by Jumping with a Sword (for the spell), Cover/Counter or using Flash.

Sabin : Full Golem what else can I say he just hit like a truck (especially if he targets elemental weakness) and his hard to kill, Blitz are usefull, summonning Golem for Defense really nothing wrong with this build.

Cyan : Full Kirin until I get Alexandr toward the end and gives some HP, IMO Stamina Cyan is awesome now, nearly impossible to kill (especially with Empowerer), good Damage with Cover/Counter, Dragon and Eclipse, can still get a really high Vig with equipment to make use of Dispatch against Human and Tempest and make the counter stronger (also he can equip Nirvana Band), awesome out of fight healer (since he can get his MP back very easily) and even in Battle his Cure 2 isn't to bad really nothing wrong here the only thing he lacks is speed for me.

Gau : Well go full speed with go since he is in auto-pilot through Rage might as well speed him up he can be really great when use properly but I felt like he was lacking end game.

Relm : I mix Zoneseek and Ifrit's so basically a speedy mage very good Healer, great Non-Elemental damage Osmose for MP Recovering, and Sketch can be really great.

Strago : Full Mage going Zoneseek and Shiva, Raid and Osmose are really good MP recovery option, Lore are good, and Dual-Casting Dark and Ice 2 against ennemy weak to hit is very effective, is probably the character that can set Safe and Shell on the entire party the fastest.

Setzer : I mix Seraph and Shoat's EL one of the best healer in the game, Slot are great once mastered, lack some Offensive option End-game in my opinion.

Shadow : Go for a mix of Phantom and Fenrir, people have told me that most of his damage come from Scrolls and Shuriken, I say grab 2 Sakuras in WoB if you get the 2 Break damage is really great, in WoR grab the Orochi and Kagenui increase his Evasion as much as you can (Dark Gear and Dark Hoods works well and we can just buy them and later there is the Mirage Vest) and you get IMO the best physical Damage Dealer in the game, he evades a lot while protecting his allies (not to mention Interceptor) and counter violently, alternatively with his insane speed putting him in Berserk works very well to, Haste X is nice but outside of it and Smoke Bombs Shadow lack support option which is his only down side.

Mog : I'm going to put it simply easily the best Rod user putting points in Maduin to increase Mag and Stam to increase both the odds of spellcasting with Rod and the odd of Cover/Counter, and then once you get Terrato put all the remaining EL into Terrato and you get a really hard to kill Mog, and then it's either Cover/Counter with Rods by having Hero Ring and Black Belt OR Jumping with Rods in the back row with Moogle Charm and Dragoon Seal in both case Mog is best Rod user for because he is the only one that can get very tanky, Dance have their use early on but didn't find very usefull in WoR and I really don't see any reason to use Sage Stone with Mog over Locke and Strago.

Gogo : Jack of all trick master of none can put some really combo such has Rage + Rods or Mimic powefull magic for a free and instant cast, really I liked him but to fragile and low stats

Umaro : Gonna say if you want a brutal and brainless physical Damage Dealer Umaro is the man, he punch thing and do it with passion.

So overall there wasn't bad character in my playthrough, I think for me the best were Cyan, Shadow and Terra all three were usefull in every way and I think that of the 3 Cyan was the best because his usefulness bloow earlier than Shadow and Terra and he stay usefull until the end for me. 

[Artus 1]

Just putting a vote out there for Mr. Thou. On my casual first play-through, he pretty much soloed all the Magitech factory bosses and he has been this consistent bastion when all else failed. He might fall aside once I unlock all the espers and can kit out people into neat builds, but even on a derp build Cyan is pretty awesome.

[Reiker 26]

For me the answer to this question is always going to be Setzer.

Yes, he's not the most powerful character by the end game. But that's okay. He's still the most valuable character. He's the workhorse that gets you there.

When I played vanilla FF6 I always thought to myself, "Man, I wish Banon was a permanent character. Health is so powerful!" Well, Setzer is vanilla Banon and more. All you've gotta do is throw this guy in your party and at the very least you have powerful MP-free healing every single turn. That's more than worth it even if you can't learn the other Slots. I see so many streamers complain that the game is too difficult, or that they die too often, yet they refuse to use Setzer. I don't get it!

If you have a turn where you don't need the healing of Go Fish, then Setzer also has Solitaire and Blackjack as very respectable MT damage options which I tend to refer to as "mini Ultima." All you really need to do is learn the timing of one of these attacks, but both are easy to learn and learning both gives you the extra edge of being able to squeeze the most damage out of Setzer (as long as you know the defense properties of the enemy(s) that you're facing). If you want to be a real Setzer pro then you can learn Chocobop for MT Stop, Bars for random esper support, and Jackpot for a full party revive (which usually isn't useful enough to be worth learning the timing to be honest).

A lot of people roll their eyes when I talk about learning the Slots inputs, but it's not that difficult. For Solitaire you wait about a second after selecting slots for the first input, then about half a second for the 2nd input, and then about half a second for the 3rd input. For Blackjack you press A almost immediately after selecting slots, then about half a second for the 2nd input, and then a little under half a second for the 3rd input.

With that rough guide you should be able to create a save state just before you select slots, practice for a couple minutes, and learn both inputs pretty easily.

Now you have a single character with the two most powerful and useful RPG abilities: 1) Clearing away groups of enemies, and 2) Fully restoring your entire party's HP. And he doesn't even need to expend resources to do these things. You would think a character with such powerful abilities would be frail as hell, but nope... Setzer is one of the more tanky characters in BNW. And you can hide him away in the back row.

Since these abilities never change from the time you recruit him until the end of the game, of course they start to fall off in power by the end. But honestly by then he just starts to feel balanced rather than weak. Because for the first half of the game he sure doesn't feel balanced.

It actually reminds me a lot of vanilla Sabin: very strong through most of the game, but falls off at the end due to poor equipment selection and when Blitz/Fight is outshined by Ultima spam. And despite this, most people would probably consider Sabin their vanilla MVP.

And yet for some reason people don't give Setzer proper credit for how powerful he is. Not only is he the most valuable character, he's maybe also the most consistently underrated character.

Edited April 24 by Reiker

[thzfunnymzn 86]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:08 AM, Reiker said:

Since these abilities never change from the time you recruit him until the end of the game, of course they start to fall off in power by the end. But honestly by then he just starts to feel balanced rather than weak. Because for the first half of the game he sure doesn't feel balanced.

+1

[Mr. Ultima 0]

I'm voting for Locke for one reason: he is the most balanced character in the game. Every build of his is very good and not overpowered.

He gets a nice amount of HP/Stam making him a good "light tank" being able to equip sword/shield and heavy armor.

He is one of 4 character to receive a +2 speed esper, making him a very fast character with Mirage Vest/daggers.

Both build options above are partnered with the fact that he has access to Ranuh which allow him to compete with Terra/Celes/Edgar when it comes to Vigor.

X-Mage Locke can absolutely demolish machines and undead alike. Not to meantion he is the best healer in the game, being able to throw out a Cure2 AoE and a Cure single target on your tank will almost always get everyone back on their feet.

He does have one flaw that is prominent throughout the game: he has almost no MP. He runs out of MP fairly quickly in WoB, and once you recruit him in WoR you have access the more MP via EL's; but, you will have him using X-magic by this time so the +MP doesn't help too much. Basically just throw a Tincture at him every couple turns and he will be good.

[thzfunnymzn 86]

No MP growth in the WoB is a very unfortunate flaw with Locke. Thankfully, he comes back with his MP+ esper, though Phoenix Cave is "traditionally done late," so you never really see the fullness of Locke's gameplay until late in the game. Phoenix also has slow MP growth, which does limit his total MP (lest X-Life2 and the like become too easy), but it does exasperate the the flaw just mentioned.

No real way to fix that. Sadly, his healing capacities in the WoB are mostly limited to a hidden item.

[JohnFuklaw 12]

You know I've always felt that Locke was weak in WoB and strong in WoR (the opposite of how I think about Sabin)

In my most recent playthrough I decided to just make him a tanky healer with the healing shiv and respecced him as soon as I got him in WoR.

I hear people talk about how good his X-Magic build is but I didn't like it when I tried it. I used him in Narshe and in Cyan's Dream, were those just bad dungeons for him? Or am I maybe just doing it wrong?

[Nesouk 33]

2 hours ago, JohnFuklaw said:

I hear people talk about how good his X-Magic build is but I didn't like it when I tried it. I used him in Narshe and in Cyan's Dream, were those just bad dungeons for him? Or am I maybe just doing it wrong?

The interesting  thing with Sage Stone is that he gives him option to economize MP like Cure 2 + Cure isn't very far of Cure 3 in terms of power and cost only 20MP instead of 32MP or Life + Cure 2 on same character is as good as Life 2 but with 28MP instead of 60MP, to increase the power of his healing you can use Rogue Cloak but honnestly if you want the most of him as a caster you should go ahead and reset his EL in WoR and invest all his EL in Phenix it will make him very tanky and will give a LOT of MP to use.

[thzfunnymzn 86]

X-Mage Locke, offensively, is mostly good for Fire weak bosses. The raw power of 108 x2 x2 will melt said bosses very quickly. In all other cases though, he needs immense MP support to maintain any decent offense.

X-Locke is mostly the game's ultimate healer. Speedy, tanky, all the best heals, Rogue Cloak to boost his effectiveness, and X-Magic with said heals. He's undeniably strong, but I find that it's all overkill. Hence, I much prefer a mixed Ramuh / Phoenix build so as to have good, reliable offense with the bulk and healing.

[SpoonyBard 20]

Why isn't best girl Celes everyone's MVP

Are we playing the same game?

At 2nd place I'd tie Terra/Edgar for being really solid throughout the whole game.

4th Setzer because 7 flush is one of the best "cost-free" random encounter destroyer, and he can switch roles from AoE monster in dungeons to the most reliable healer in boss fights.

 

 

 

[thzfunnymzn 86]

Guess I'll chime in that, looking at the poll results, I think Terra is overrated, while Edgar and Shadow are underrated.

[Mr. Ultima 0]

I should clarify, because I forgot it in my original post. By the time you reach the Floating Continent the player has already been accustomed to Locke's low MP, just throw a tincture or two at him every couple of battles and he will do fine; besides, you will only really use his healing in battle when necessary or to hit elemental weaknesses. His MP usage becomes exaggerated once you reach the WoR but he does have Pheonix to help mitigate this.

31 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Guess I'll chime in that, looking at the poll results, I think Terra is overrated, while Edgar and Shadow are underrated.

As someone who plays all three regularly, I agree. I think Shadow and Relm get low votes because people forget to apply buffs on them.

[thzfunnymzn 86]

It's probably because of their frailty, neither being freely usable until the WoR, and being resource heavy (Relm is MP intensive, Shadow's big physical throwables are GP intensive). Relm is a little underrated too, yes, though it's Shadow's low votes are strike me a little more than Relm's.

Sabin, Celes, and Setzer don't surprise me. Locke's lost a lot of votes since previous poll, but w/e.

[Nesouk 33]

1 hour ago, Mr. Ultima said:

As someone who plays all three regularly, I agree. I think Shadow and Relm get low votes because people forget to apply buffs on them.

The problem with them both is that they don't get there best stuff until Middle/Late WoR otherwise Shadow would have get my vote.

[thzfunnymzn 86]

Huh. I'd have thought that be more of a problem for Relm. Shadow's mostly good to go once he comes back. He'll have Ninja Mask, Fenrir is simple to grab, Rogue Cloak is in another easy dungeon, his buyables are available right there in Jidoor, Dark Gear is buyable and practically endgame worthy. It's mostly a few ninja blades he doesn't have access, I think mostly just the one in Cyan's Soul. He's also got more WoB availability than Relm, and he performs well in the WoB. All in contrast to poor Relm.

Then again, Shadow is one of the few characters without an AoE heal and he's also the frailest character, being unable to even equip shields, so that probably weighs against him as well.

[SpoonyBard 20]

Terra is useless in random battles unless Storm is super effective or muddle/imp work. Other powerful spells are too MP costly to really spam until Gem Box (lategame). Morphing requires setup so that's out of the question.

But against almost every boss in the game she can do *ridiculous* damage. I'm not a fan of Vigor builds, but Maduin Terra in the back row is tanky enough even when Morphed.

Honestly I can't find a better boss destroyer than Terra. That doubles up as extra healer if needed, is extremely resilient when unmorphed (and if you don't get oneshot and have the right build, even when morphed thanks to regen ticks), and has plenty of utility magic in general. Unmorphing takes like, less than half of a turn. If you're in dire straits, that's all it takes to switch from monster damage dealer to sturdy healer / patcher upper (whatever the actual word is for someone who does patch-up).

 

Shadow and Relm are both very strong, but they're a lot more "niche". All the top picks for MVP are characters that are solid no matter what party you put them in and what enemy you're facing. Shadow and Relm are awesome in a *lot* of situations, they're also very frustrating to use just as often, especially if you don't know the mod inside out.

I won't argue your point because I agree with you that shadow is really good, but this MVP poll makes complete sense to me.

Edited June 16 by SpoonyBard

[pogeymanz 10]

I'm still on 1.8.6, but I don't think my vote would change terribly based on the changes in 1.9. I've only got the dragons, Fanatics Tower, and Kefka's Tower left.

But, it's really hard for me to choose an MVP. I guess if we are defining MVP as most valuable over the course of the whole game so far, it would exclude Locke for me, despite being my strongest asset for much of the WoR.

So the running is probably Cyan, Edgar, and Terra. I'm doing Stam Cyan, Hybrid Edgar (10 Golem in WoB, 10 Siren in WoR), and Stam Terra. Cyan hard carried me for much of the WoB. Edgar is always tanky and super-useful, and stam Terra is whatever you need her to be: Huge regen ticks, huge magic damage, good physical damage, decent HP, etc, etc.

I'm also not surprised that Shadow and Relm are not ranked highly. It's not that they aren't awesome- it's just that they aren't going to be MVP. I think that's because Relm and Shadow are not as do-everything as the others who are ranking highly.

[GeradFigaro 14]

Edgar was my favorite character in vanilla, and he’s still my favorite here. Very reliable survivability, healing, damage, and status. A great fit in any party.

I didn’t focus on any one Esper. All my characters are balanced to whatever degrees their espers allow. Maybe I’m playing wrong, because at low 20’s everything in WoR was a huge threat, but at 30, the remaining challenges were trivial, even Magimaster.