praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

834 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

I mean at this point I'm wondering why I'm even bothering giving feedback here and pointing stuff, when apparently I'm getting ignored most of the time.

You'd better just stop wasting your time and giving feedback. The best feedback is to abandon playing the mod, since it has never been about a challenge mod. The equipment mechanics and class variety are nice features, but the mod itself is overly tedious and focuses on giving the player the middle finger in every possible way rather than actually feeling fun or rewarding when you succeed in overcoming a tough battle. The feeling of victory is lost after spamming the same moves for 20-30 minutes. If the guy is so stubborn that he never listens to feedback and just wants to execute ideas that will make the mod even more tedious and frustrating to the players, let him be the only person who plays his masochistic vision of a mod.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's true that some of the GB gimmicks are a bit tough to figure out.  I propose that Dolan does less damage (Final Fantasy 6's "Angel One" effect?).  Or one of his spells do 999 damage on one character.  Or have numerous ways to neutralize 2nd Spiral Moon.  That way, players can have several ways to survive (barely), instead of one specific method.

For example, in FF6, we have that one crazy boss, MagiMaster.  He casts Ultima as his dying spell, which generally wipes out your whole party if you don't know what to expect (which would require the player to reclimb that damn tower).  But there are numerous ways to survive that attack, and many of those methods are rather "intuitive".  1. Overlevel, hence having enough HP to survive.  2. Reraise.  3. Drain its MP (numerous means).  4. Have one character be in the air (boot, summon, etc).  The point is, they'll probably die the first time, but will come prepared the 2nd time.  I think that's one of the many reasons why people loved FF6 (despite its many many flaws).

I think the game would be a lot better if there's at least some "intuitive" way to solve a fight, even if they lose the first time.  AntiMagic is an excellent intuitive method of neutralizing 2nd Spiral Moon, and it can always be available via Black Market.  After all, preparation is half the battle.

Btw, my fav method of killing MagiMaster was draining its MP via really complicated method -- Berserk the boss, Invis all your characters, have one guy equip Heal Rod, and then have the other 3 chars equip MP draining weapon on one hand, and MP using weapon hand on the other.  Then Haste + Berserk everyone.  Then go do something else for a day or so.  Extremely tedious, but it was fun trying to figure out yet-another-method to kill that asshole.  Well, I didn't come up with that method, but it was still fun.

Edited by hmsong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

You'd better just stop wasting your time and giving feedback. The best feedback is to abandon playing the mod, since it has never been about a challenge mod. The equipment mechanics and class variety are nice features, but the mod itself is overly tedious and focuses on giving the player the middle finger in every possible way rather than actually feeling fun or rewarding when you succeed in overcoming a tough battle. The feeling of victory is lost after spamming the same moves for 20-30 minutes. If the guy is so stubborn that he never listens to feedback and just wants to execute ideas that will make the mod even more tedious and frustrating to the players, let him be the only person who plays his masochistic vision of a mod.

Now now.  Let's face it.  This game is actually quite fun.  Sure, it has its flaws, but we're all here because we enjoyed it.  I'm creating my own mod (tweak, really), but I still enjoyed this game (although I only played it once all the way through).

Edited by hmsong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

you sold your mod as an Hardtype mod

ok, where does it say that?
the most offputting tag there should be "beta"

55 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

If I am a stranger looking to play SD3 with a mod and pick your mod what guaranteed me that you actually won't require a specific spell or item at one point ?

Technically nothing, aside from it being bullshit design to only give a hint that you may require ability X like 20 hours into a game when the choice was right at the start.

Though is it too much to ask for some trust after working 6 years on this?

1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

-I and other mention several times for mounth how Spike damage were OP, you didn't address it until last version
-I told here several time over multiple month how the armor that make spell neutral was glitched sometime just after post of yours, yet when the matter was bring on discord it's as if you discovered it.
-I mentionned several time Day Bonus could be exploit to increase damage, yet it only became an issue because a guy who didn't even know the mechanic complain about it on discord.
-I also mentionned multiple how you could use Earth Bracelet to get the Final Weapons earlier, yet again it became an issue when someone who didn't even know about it complain about it.
-The stacking 6 beastman collars one is even sillier, I got insulted for suggesting it on Discord, while originally it was someone on this forum (think it was Serafie actually) who suggest it to me after I run into money problem on my first run, and it actually save my first run, I used it on every run afterward and mention a LOT of time it's efficiency, so it's effiency and fact it broked the money curve was prove since at least 2 years, yet became only a problem when a guy who didn't know about it complain about it on Discord.

Back then when you brought it to my attention it sounded like they were "nice to have" bonuses; like with the collars, can you afford more stuff with them? yes, that was their point.

But then it got to a point where every idiot under the sun treated 6 collars like it was a "must have or don't bother playing" type of deal. Same with thorns armor and day bonus.

No idea what happened with the armor bug, sorry.

42 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

The best feedback is to abandon playing the mod, since it has never been about a challenge mod.

Since I get nothing out of this but frustration, feel free to do so, saves me a ton of work.
Technically I was "done" about 5 years ago, everything after that was only because people kept asking for more.

49 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

but the mod itself is overly tedious and focuses on giving the player the middle finger in every possible way

Please explain.

47 minutes ago, hmsong said:

It's true that some of the GB gimmicks are a bit tough to figure out.

Funny thing is, I expected Death Jester's one to be incomprehensible but seemingly everyone figured it out. *shrug*
Neither did anyone complain about Dangaard or Zable Fahr, so who else?

50 minutes ago, hmsong said:

For example, in FF6, we have that one crazy boss, MagiMaster.

I would actually call BS on that one;you have to do a whole dungeon AND a boss fight until its last HP before the trick even appears. So you easily lose like half an hour.
Dolan has a save statue directly before it and starts with the kill move. So it is 1-2 minutes tops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
11 hours ago, hmsong said:

For example, in FF6, we have that one crazy boss, MagiMaster.

I would actually call BS on that one;you have to do a whole dungeon AND a boss fight until its last HP before the trick even appears. So you easily lose like half an hour.
Dolan has a save statue directly before it and starts with the kill move. So it is 1-2 minutes tops.

This. TBH, I actually kind of like Dolan having the "trickiest" gimmick; he's always been the baddest ass of the God Beasts and kind of a marquee boss for the game. If players don't use that save point after climbing Moonreading Tower, they're asking for trouble.

Also, in general, the purpose of these message boards should be for players and mod designers to share findings and suggestions with each other and the designer. The experience of playing and sharing is the point; if it results in a change, that's great, but a change should not be expected. No game is perfect (otherwise, these mods would have no reason to exist), and no one has infinite time to devote to fixing problems. I'm pretty sure the designers don't get paid for this work; they have lives and responsibilities outside of perfecting these games, and even if they did get paid, it's not up to players to dictate what they do with their time, OR their creation.

I know it can be frustrating if you feel like your advice or problem is not heard or valued. I think in this case, the most you can do is repost it in a more obvious way, or try harder to explain the importance of the problem. Sometimes it takes multiple people reporting the problem for it to get fixed.

I apologize if I'm misunderstanding the situation, and please point it out to me if I'm being off-base; I've had so much fun posting, positing, and discussing details of this game with all of you over the past few years. I just want everyone to respect each other's time, effort, and responsibilities here. As far as I understand, these mods are labors of love, and should be treated as such.

Edited by rpschamp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Duran snowman, can't cure,all item and magic don't work on wierd.thumb.png.4d61937debe8a0a50371dd4b7fb869e2.pnghim. golden statue just heal his HP,not stats.

so i go into cave.can't attack and X button.can't even move out,Risez is on the side of exit .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so u need to use drum to get him/her back.i don't know it is bug or not?i have't seen it on Original game .

lol.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I would actually call BS on that one;you have to do a whole dungeon AND a boss fight until its last HP before the trick even appears. So you easily lose like half an hour.

Dolan has a save statue directly before it and starts with the kill move. So it is 1-2 minutes tops.

Yes, Dolan fight does indeed have faster "reset" time for the fight.  I'm not denying that.  My points were 2 things about "tricky gimmick" of MagiMaster:  1. It's easier to figure out what to do the next time you fight him, since you literally see him die after casting Ultima (so you learn, "ohh, so he casts that crap as he dies... gotta figure stuff around that.").  2. There are multiple intuitive counter-measures to defend against it, once you've been through his mechanic.

Most people here complained about Dolan, not because he had that one move that wipes out your party (that's actually a great and fun part of the game, and it needs to be kept) -- they were complaining because they couldn't figure out how to neutralize that, and the solution was not intuitive.  That's why I proposed a solution to have additional way to neutralize it -- AntiMagic.  It's intuitive and available to everyone (assuming someone would have it, or at least available at Black Market), and at the same time, it requires advanced preparation (meaning, if you don't have AntiMagic item, then you have to use Magical Rope and then buy that item, then reclimb the tower).  Personally, I enjoy the "advanced preparation due to toughness of the boss" thing, as long as it's something I can reasonably figure out during the first fight (I feel like I'm Batman -- lose the first fight, but come prepared the 2nd fight to kick its ass).

Edited by hmsong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, hmsong said:

That's why I proposed a solution to have additional way to neutralize it -- AntiMagic.

I agree here - two solutions wouldn't hurt, especially since the Antimagic solution would be the more resource-intensive. Nesouk mentioned this earlier too.

The current solution took me three or four fights to figure out. I got the idea to counter Energy Ball, the normal way, with a level 1 tech, which didn't work, but then I thought that maybe I needed to do a "super counter" by using a level 2/3 tech. It wasn't until I later read on the message board that I realized this level 2/3 tech didn't need to be timed as a counter; it just needed to be executed before he threw the next Spiral Moon. That made things a little bit easier.

Edited by rpschamp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hello, i just found this mod and think i have a bug. when bringing up the "menu" screen i have to be pressing the d-pad in any direction as well as whatever button i have assigned to the menu/tech attack button, doesn't matter what button on my controller because i've tried swapping it. i can't just be standing still or the menu won't show up and in fact nothing happens. this doesn't seem to take effect in battle luckily. 

since i did't see this mentioned in the README.txt supplied or anywhere here on the forum i'm just making sure i didn't ruin anything by using multiple IPS patches and i had a hell of a time finding a compatible translated rom that didn't have that awful palette swap patch pre-applied. 

thanks for all the hard work btw. i'm super tempted to pick up the SD3 remake on ps4 but having never played the game I really want to experience it on SNES first. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, shiliwei said:

Duran snowman, can't cure,all item and magic don't work on

Do you remember through what attack or measure snowman was inflicted?

7 hours ago, hmsong said:

That's why I proposed a solution to have additional way to neutralize it -- AntiMagic.

That sets a precendent, specifically that it is allowed by game rules for a victory required to be bought.

In other words someone may not stumble upon the L3 tech solution, only on the 3k per cast eye version.
So they'd think they HAVE TO shell out 30k worth of items with no other way out.
And in later fights they might be then think the same way, see that backtracking to the black market is insanely far off and quit altogether.

54 minutes ago, Pixelated_Piracy said:

hello, i just found this mod and think i have a bug. when bringing up the "menu" screen i have to be pressing the d-pad in any direction as well as whatever button i have assigned to the menu/tech attack button, doesn't matter what button on my controller because i've tried swapping it. i can't just be standing still or the menu won't show up and in fact nothing happens. this doesn't seem to take effect in battle luckily. 

which menu do you mean?
ring menu? status menu? storage menu?
accessing the status menu should be the only one that requires more than one button, here Y+B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it was indeed the status menu and doesn't require Y+B but instead in my game is requiring the D-pad+B, again not a super terrible thing BUT i'm just hoping it doesn't break later game stuff. nothing else seems effected so far but i'm only just now at the 1st boss. 

just in case it matters i have installed the translation patch, sins of mana base, normal mode, the extra late game fight, and skip spell animations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Do you remember through what attack or measure snowman was inflicted?

ice or frost dragon attack.i tried a few times.about less 10% can't change back. and Duran equipped balckshade ring.there is no "heal hurts" 

heal light still heal me.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/20/2020 at 1:56 PM, praetarius5018 said:

I think I got it...

I halved the frequency at which a ton of shit is checked, cast time block in menu being one of it (technically I just increment the cast ready destination by x frames every x frames) and I forgot to double the added delay there... good catch.

I'm glad I could help!  Interesting that even with the exploit being only half as effective it felt just like normal.  Maybe navigating the ring menus really does take that long.  Here's hoping the fix worked!

(Does that mean you can overflow the cast ready destination by sitting in the ring menu indefinitely?  Hmm.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Pixelated_Piracy said:

it was indeed the status menu and doesn't require Y+B but instead in my game is requiring the D-pad+B, again not a super terrible thing BUT i'm just hoping it doesn't break later game stuff. nothing else seems effected so far but i'm only just now at the 1st boss. 

just in case it matters i have installed the translation patch, sins of mana base, normal mode, the extra late game fight, and skip spell animations.

I don't know in what world direction+Y results in "all buttons are pressed"... but here we are...

8 hours ago, shiliwei said:

Duran equipped balckshade ring.there is no "heal hurts" 

heal light still heal me.

heal hurts only counts in battle - are there enemies on screen?

7 hours ago, Mr. Cantaloupe said:

I'm glad I could help!  Interesting that even with the exploit being only half as effective it felt just like normal.  Maybe navigating the ring menus really does take that long.  Here's hoping the fix worked!

(Does that mean you can overflow the cast ready destination by sitting in the ring menu indefinitely?  Hmm.)

Should only work with the bug in the live version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

heal hurts only counts in battle - are there enemies on screen?

thank you.you are right

Edited by shiliwei

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24/05/2020 at 6:02 PM, praetarius5018 said:

ok, where does it say that?
the most offputting tag there should be "beta"

Technically nothing, aside from it being bullshit design to only give a hint that you may require ability X like 20 hours into a game when the choice was right at the start.

Though is it too much to ask for some trust after working 6 years on this?

Back then when you brought it to my attention it sounded like they were "nice to have" bonuses; like with the collars, can you afford more stuff with them? yes, that was their point.

But then it got to a point where every idiot under the sun treated 6 collars like it was a "must have or don't bother playing" type of deal. Same with thorns armor and day bonus.

No idea what happened with the armor bug, sorry.

Originally I discover your mod with an LP that called him Seiken Densetsu 3 Hardtype, IIRC that's how it was called on Insane Difficulty, if this is just a mistake on this Let's Player then sorry for the inconvenience.

People that discover your mod now won't guess you put 6 years, now I know it but back when I first play this I I didn't.

Well I call the spike armor OP actually, I remember when I finish this mod for the first time in my conclusion, I actually say that Spike Armor were outshining the other armors (the high HP armor to but I was wrong about these). 

Admitadly for the 6 Beastman Collars I call the trick amazing, since you didn't react I thought you were fine with it.

The Day Bonus being a core mechanic of the game since vanilla, and since I got no bad reaction from you on using it, I end up assume you include it in the design of the mod.

Ultimately I'm sorry if this comed out as rude, I still love your mod and will keep playing it regardless.

Edited by Nesouk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Originally I discover your mod with an LP that called him Seiken Densetsu 3 Hardtype, IIRC that's how it was called on Insane Difficulty, if this is just a mistake on this Let's Player then sorry for the inconvenience.

It was called Hardtype in the beginning but it got a proper title around 2016. So depending on when the LP was it may be correct or an error.

10 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Well I call the spike armor OP actually

Maybe.
That armor is one of those ideas where I know that I should probably nerf it a bit but don't know how (less damage reflected does not change status reflection abuse) and dropping it is something I don't want to do.

Maybe I should mark it as cursed (can never be removed once equipped) and call it a day since 80% of the bosses don't interact with that effect.

10 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Admitadly for the 6 Beastman Collars I call the trick amazing, since you didn't react I thought you were fine with it.

I was ok with it initially.
I bit of extra cash shouldn't change balance that much.
Then advice got aggressively onesided so it clearly was a problem.

10 hours ago, Nesouk said:

The Day Bonus being a core mechanic of the game since vanilla, and since I got no bad reaction from you on using it, I end up assume you include it in the design of the mod.

This is one of those things where I changed my mind over time.
At the start +25% damage seemed like a nice but not a must have bonus.
Then much later I got the impression that people would just stand around/sleep in inn or whatever and waste much time just so they can have this bonus as much as possible for bosses.

I don't really know what to do with this tbh.
On one side it just gets in the way of the game flow and even punish the player if they don't pay attention (e.g. Xan Bie on fire day)
on the other it is kinda a unique feature in this game in that ingame time actually matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the spike armor, your idea of making ennemies type immune to it was a good one I think, you should make more type of ennemies immune to it, I think if like half the ennemies were immune it would still be relevant to the other type not immune, but to OP thanks to quite a lot of ennemies being immune. It doesn't interact with but it can actually straight up trivialize fights (Bigieu and Black Rabite most notably) or just be a big help (Archdemon first phase when he uses Jutsus).

Day bonus system is a pretty neat mechanic, I wish there was a way to simply sleep at a inn and being wake up on whatever day you want, would make it easier to use properly, 25% is quite a lot especially considering it stavk with other stuff, 10% would be enough, a good little bonus but not to important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

For the spike armor, your idea of making ennemies type immune to it was a good one I think, you should make more type of ennemies immune to it, I think if like half the ennemies were immune it would still be relevant to the other type not immune

I wanna keep it consistent; the enemies currently immune to thorns deal magic damage with their regular attack.
If we make other enemies immune to them as well we just create more and more exceptions the player has to keep track of - and the game is already a mess.

19 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

just be a big help (Archdemon first phase when he uses Jutsus).

that's still a bug I should try to fix

20 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

Day bonus system is a pretty neat mechanic, I wish there was a way to simply sleep at a inn and being wake up on whatever day you want, would make it easier to use properly, 25% is quite a lot especially considering it stavk with other stuff, 10% would be enough, a good little bonus but not to important.

It is currently 12.5%.
(Powers of 2 are much lighter on the already strained CPU.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2020 at 7:39 PM, smileless said:

I am experiencing quite a few of crashes in Forest of Wonder as I was farming for weapon/armor seeds (snes9x)

Do you recall if the mini status was involved?
I just found out that if mini status is active and you perform regular attacks one pointer is wrong and modifies some data it shouldn't, so obviously unpredictable results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Do you recall if the mini status was involved?
I just found out that if mini status is active and you perform regular attacks one pointer is wrong and modifies some data it shouldn't, so obviously unpredictable results.

Nah didn't have Mini status.

Am trying to remember if the Grell enemy inflicted Moogle status, what are the odds being from that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regular Grell have chibikko, Grell Mages moogle status.

Since moogle makes you auto-miss it doesn't reach the problematic section.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/31/2020 at 6:08 AM, praetarius5018 said:

Do you recall if the mini status was involved?
I just found out that if mini status is active and you perform regular attacks one pointer is wrong and modifies some data it shouldn't, so obviously unpredictable results.

This is the first bug I reported back in 2018. I still have this problem: when I'm Chibikko and attack, the graphics go to hallucinogenic nightmare conditions, meaning tiled patterns turn into other patterns, the screen begins flashing, etc. This only seems to happen if the attack has a target; if I'm standing away from an enemy and no hit or miss is registered, the graphics stay normal. After invoking this bug, if I can navigate these conditions and direct myself to a save point, I can then restart the game and everything is back to normal. But I typically just reset.

One other bug I previously reported: sometimes one of the helmets in my inventory will become another helmet in the game. I have seen this happen with multiple helmets, but not with any other type of equipment, so I can't verify whether this bug affects other types of equipment. Sometimes the resulting helmet will be for a character who is not in my party, so I know that I did not just purchase it by accident. Sometimes this is nice, as when my Faerie Hat turned into a Ruby Band, which I promptly sold at profit. But most of the time this causes me to revert to a previous save point or backtrack and buy a replacement if it's not too expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rpschamp said:

This is the first bug I reported back in 2018. I still have this problem: when I'm Chibikko and attack, the graphics go to hallucinogenic nightmare conditions, meaning tiled patterns turn into other patterns, the screen begins flashing, etc. This only seems to happen if the attack has a target; if I'm standing away from an enemy and no hit or miss is registered, the graphics stay normal. After invoking this bug, if I can navigate these conditions and direct myself to a save point, I can then restart the game and everything is back to normal. But I typically just reset.

Yeah that sounds like it'd be that effect I found.

2 hours ago, rpschamp said:

One other bug I previously reported: sometimes one of the helmets in my inventory will become another helmet in the game. I have seen this happen with multiple helmets, but not with any other type of equipment, so I can't verify whether this bug affects other types of equipment. Sometimes the resulting helmet will be for a character who is not in my party, so I know that I did not just purchase it by accident. Sometimes this is nice, as when my Faerie Hat turned into a Ruby Band, which I promptly sold at profit. But most of the time this causes me to revert to a previous save point or backtrack and buy a replacement if it's not too expensive.

Anyone else had this?
I've no idea what to look for here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now