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13 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

That's the MP economy, but you can also look at the turn economy and risks;
just imagine that Fire barely does not kill the target and Ice just barely does.
Then you'd need 2x Fire or Fire + anything else, using more turns and MP, maybe even risking eating a counter attack.

And I guess the deal gets better at the higher tiers.
Fire -> Ice is +50% MP cost
Fire2/3 -> Ice2/3 only +25%
while damage ratio stays the same (+1/9)

I doubt players are sitting there with a pen and paper and looking at the enemy HP stats and calulating the damage of Fire vs Bolt on Locke deciding which one to use, especially when the random factor to damage

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Tbf GamingFiend, the only characters seriously using MP at this point in the game are Terra and Celes. Fire and Ice are virtually identical in terms of MP and Spell Power. Bigger issue is that Ice has few uses in the early game (seems that Brawlers were meant to be susceptible to Ice, but Rock counterattacks + poison strats means that'll never happen). Celes has the MP for Bolt in the IMF, it's just never had much of a niche even in the IMF all throughout BNW's life, and, well, now, Celes has the Morning Star instead.

On 4/10/2018 at 2:02 AM, Nesouk said:

I also have some doubt on C/C Edgar's efficiency due to his low base Stamina but he does have Spears for the Cover effect (also Gungnir for HP+50%) alloing to free up a Relic space for Nirvana Band for instance and can reach a decent vigor even if you go full Unicorn but it doesn't seem as appealing as Cover/Counter Cyan, Terra however could be great due to high damage potential thanks to Morph + Sword that cast Spell since she has access to the Oath Veil to increase spellsword cast, being in Morph also boost the healing she receives and give her massive Regen ticks so there is potential there I think, Sabin would be interesting due to the fact that just like Cyan his base Vig is already high enough that even with no investment in Vig through EL he can reach a good Vigor with equipment, however unlike Cyan he doesn't have access to equipment that gives him the counter effect so he requires Hero Ring + Black Belt and his equipment in general gives less Defense than Cyan.

But after all I guess it's ust a matter of playstyle ^^

Terra I suspect is best off picking one or the other of Cover or Counter. Certainly a more bulky healer build (HP, MP, some mag) would prefer Cover for also defending allies. Vig Terra lacks stamina and should not, under any circumstances, try to combine Morph with Cover. C/C Apocalypse Terra without Morph isn't a bad idea and does make use of all of the Hero's Ring bonuses; though with low stamina and missing the Power Glove, eh. A Morph Omega build could, but I'm not sure how nicely Morph or Omega plays with the increased damage Terra will take. Then again, I'm always surprised with how absurd Morph Omega is, so maybe Terra can c/c better than I thought.

My Unicorn Edgar was played in NHT, so it's not the best representative of Unicorn Edgar balance. That said, he still performed admirably in the WoB, so it's clearly a fine build early on. I just have my doubts on how well he'll scale into the WoR. Worried that he'll become too much of a one-trick pony without speed. And while he ought to be given at least some Siren or Palidor, I'm not sure how well "Unicorn Cover Edgar" synergizes with either mag Support Edgar (moar speed, Force equips, back row) or Palidor (Unicorn + Palidor seems like a worse version of Golem + Palidor). At least Unicorn Edgar can technically claim something for its own now.

I don't trust Sabin defenses to hold up while also Covering allies. Even Terrato Sabin loses HP for using Mantra if he Covers, though he's the only Sabin build who can even think about Covering without eating dirt.

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1 hour ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Tbf GamingFiend, the only characters seriously using MP at this point in the game are Terra and Celes. Fire and Ice are virtually identical in terms of MP and Spell Power. Bigger issue is that Ice has few uses in the early game (seems that Brawlers were meant to be susceptible to Ice, but Rock counterattacks + poison strats means that'll never happen). Celes has the MP for Bolt in the IMF, it's just never had much of a niche even in the IMF all throughout BNW's life, and, well, now, Celes has the Morning Star instead.

Terra I suspect is best off picking one or the other of Cover or Counter. Certainly a more bulky healer build (HP, MP, some mag) would prefer Cover for also defending allies. Vig Terra lacks stamina and should not, under any circumstances, try to combine Morph with Cover. C/C Apocalypse Terra without Morph isn't a bad idea and does make use of all of the Hero's Ring bonuses; though with low stamina and missing the Power Glove, eh. A Morph Omega build could, but I'm not sure how nicely Morph or Omega plays with the increased damage Terra will take. Then again, I'm always surprised with how absurd Morph Omega is, so maybe Terra can c/c better than I thought.

My Unicorn Edgar was played in NHT, so it's not the best representative of Unicorn Edgar balance. That said, he still performed admirably in the WoB, so it's clearly a fine build early on. I just have my doubts on how well he'll scale into the WoR. Worried that he'll become too much of a one-trick pony without speed. And while he ought to be given at least some Siren or Palidor, I'm not sure how well "Unicorn Cover Edgar" synergizes with either mag Support Edgar (moar speed, Force equips, back row) or Palidor (Unicorn + Palidor seems like a worse version of Golem + Palidor). At least Unicorn Edgar can technically claim something for its own now.

I don't trust Sabin defenses to hold up while also Covering allies. Even Terrato Sabin loses HP for using Mantra if he Covers, though he's the only Sabin build who can even think about Covering without eating dirt.

True, to be fair Locke will have to choose between Bolt and Fire too, and may use it fairly regularly if going for a Phoenix build of him

 

Unicorn Edgar is odd and mostly compares to Golem Edgar. For simplicity sake, compare a pure 20 EL Golem Edgar to a pure 20 EL Unicorn Edgar. The Golem Edgar sacrifices 200 HP and 20 Stamina in exchange for 20 Vigor, which gives Edgar a marginal defense boost and a considerably higher offensive presence with Jump and physical tools. The 20 Stamina granted by Unicorn does not benefit any of Edgar's tools or his healing capabilities with magic, thus his offense and Cure 2 are at an all time low. The main benefit is he will have tremendous staying power, particularly since unlike Cyan and Sabin he can equip shields and has a better armor selection. But Cyan and Sabin offer superior options that Stamina can fuel, Cyan with Dragon and Eclipse and Sabin with Mantra and Chakra. A Unicorn Edgar just feels like a tank with no cannon. He can give good ST heals with Remedy and a one time MT heal with Unicorn but that's as far as Stamina will benefit his skill set. Counter/Cover has poor synergy with Jump, since Edgar cannot C/C if he is in the air jumping most of the time, so you will probably want him in the front row using Chainsaw/Drill during bosses, trying to benefit from his C/C and counting on him being alive to Defibrillate downed members and heal/purge with Remedy. It's the poor synergy with Stamina that makes it feels like a niche for Edgar when compared to Cyan and Sabin especially.

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That isn't a bad analysis. That's a good comparison to Golem Edgar. Common consensus is that Golem + Palidor is best vig Edgar, so the fact that Unicorn Edgar compares to Golem Edgar, and that not necessarily even favorably, indicates a problem.

Tank with no cannon is definitely how I would describe him. Bulkiest character in the game, but then again, vig Edgar with Gungnir all ready contends for that spot and is pretty hard to kill anyways, alongside providing the benefits of vig & spd, so unless he's leveraging that bulk to help the team, it's all pretty pointless. He looks like the supreme team tank with Golem & Cover, but Sabin's got better Golem summons, Edgar's stamina is low, and his Counter offense is abysmal to mediocre. Tbf, the difference between, say, Edgar's stamina stat and Cyan's stamina stat, IIRC, isn't creating a huge difference in Cover%. The reduced stamina, in some ways, is more the nail in the coffin on top of his other problems (no cannon, no speed/magic for support/heals, other builds having more flexible game plans / equipment load-outs / etc).

At best, I could see perhaps a 10/10 mix of Unicorn with Siren that goes in the front row with Gungnir or another spear. Bit of an attempt to slap on Cover utility to the rest of mag Edgar's utility. Not sure it actually works out all that well in practice, but it's probably a better game plan than pure Unicorn or Unicorn + Palidor.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with the above posts, unicorn edgar may be the tankiest character but he seriously lacks an offensive presence, especially since Gungnir lost its "effective against floating enemies" property. It would be better if Edgar had 30 or 36 Stamina to begin with instead of his pitiable 24, that way you could mix some Golem in there to give him a little more power for his chainsaw and counter-attacks. Using Phantom Celes on my current run and I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt that Vigor/Stamina is a perfectly excellent tank option. So my unsolicited two-cents is that higher base Stamina and Gungnir getting the extra damage effect from thrown weapons like it used to have (and maybe an increase to 180 BP) would make Unicorn Edgar an attractive and powerful C/C build, up there with Cyan and Celes.

Edited by JohnFuklaw
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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, JohnFuklaw said:

I agree with the above posts, unicorn edgar may be the tankiest character but he seriously likes an offensive presence, especially since Gungnir lost its "effective against floating enemies" property. It would be better if Edgar had 30 or 36 Stamina to begin with instead of his pitable 24, that way you could mix some Golem in there to give him a little more power for his chainsaw and counter-attacks. Using Phantom Celes on my current run and I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt that Vigor/Stamina is a perfectly excellent tank option. So my unsolicited two-cents is that higher base Stamina and Gungnir getting the extra damage effect from thrown weapons like it used to have (and maybe an increase to 180 BP) would make Unicorn Edgar an attractive and powerful C/C build, up there with Cyan and Celes.

Would it work to just give the Gungnir +7 Stamina to give Edgar some more Stamina, or would Mog gain too much benefit from that as well?

edit: Just taking this idea a little further, what are the thoughts on giving all spears some amount of Stamina?
Like +2 to the Mythril Pike, +3 to the ele spears (Trident, Fire Lance, Longinus) +5 to the non-ele spears (Stout Spear, Partisan) and +7 to the Gungnir as I already mentioned above.
Would this help defensive spear set-ups without being too much of a buff to Dragooning, or would this end up more under the territory of buffing something "just because" and not really serve any purpose?

Edited by A Dummy
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1 hour ago, A Dummy said:

Would it work to just give the Gungnir +7 Stamina to give Edgar some more Stamina, or would Mog gain too much benefit from that as well?

edit: Just taking this idea a little further, what are the thoughts on giving all spears some amount of Stamina?
Like +2 to the Mythril Pike, +3 to the ele spears (Trident, Fire Lance, Longinus) +5 to the non-ele spears (Stout Spear, Partisan) and +7 to the Gungnir as I already mentioned above.
Would this help defensive spear set-ups without being too much of a buff to Dragooning, or would this end up more under the territory of buffing something "just because" and not really serve any purpose?

Better solution would be to make a spear that is Stamina damage based like Atma/Omega weapon

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Stamina-damage spear with a significant increase (more than +6) to stamina might work. Either alone won't work. More stamina is the more important one here, but it means little when there are other bulky c/c characters who simply provide more options. Stamina-damage spear means little when Unicorn Edgar's stamina is barely any better than his vigor.

It's fine if the stamina-damage spear is WoR. Unicorn Edgar's fair for the WoB. Gungnir's kinda late without early Ancient Castle (more reason to go there early?), but what can you do? Does ruin any idea of vig Edgar using Gungnir though, which is something I did prefer on my previous run.

Ultimately, I doubt a stamina-damage spear is going to get through, so perhaps it may be better to focus on Unicorn Edgar as more closely related to mag Edgar? Both support builds, just in different ways?

Another point I'll mention is that, prior to Genji, Edgar's stam+ armor is limited. No stam+ shields, Power Armor is more offensive, leaving only Green Beret & Red Cap (& Stat Hat) on his armor slot. (In fact, a lot of the interesting armor equips tend to be endgame. I think I and others have bought up this idea a few times.) I think I prefer more stam+ equip options, as it means vig/mag Edgar set-ups are more likely to have significantly less stamina from having chosen different equipment, though a +6 base stamina could also be a part of this as well. Stam+ spears seems fine to me.

Not in the mood for trying to brainstorm other avenues for buffing him, but it seems like there's no way around the fact that his core game plan, Cover, needs to work well before he has hope of getting anywhere.

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Edgar already has a stamina-based weapon; making it behave correctly with Jump is backburner'ed wishlist item.

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17 hours ago, BTB said:

Edgar already has a stamina-based weapon; making it behave correctly with Jump is backburner'ed wishlist item.

If you had your heart set on unicorn Edgar Omega Weapon is a good idea.

 

 

 

what about a Stamina Based Bio Blaster? Basically a weaker and slower Flash? That would help his atrocious offense option. He can rely on Remedy and Unicorn Summpn for healing

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I'd prefer to be stingy with stamina-based attacks. They're certainly not something everyone needs, or else the characters that do have them become much less unique and stamina builds end up universally better than others (which they already are in many cases).

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Something my OCD wishes to point out is that most stamina builds do have a stamina-based attack / heal that they rely upon or were critical to said builds being accepted as "good" builds. Terra, Locke, Sabin, Cyan, Gau, Mog, Setzer, they all fall in this category. Even Phantom Celes sorta hits on this with Cover/Counter (arguably Shadow too). Strago's lack of any specific use for stamina is perhaps a or even the major reason for why there's a noticeable portion of the players who hold little respect for said build, myself included. It's also part of why I think Mishrak is crazy for hyping up Crusader Celes so much when he could just play Siren Celes. (Relm's a weird case; she has a stamina-based heal, but the overlap with existing builds is strong, thereby devaluing her stam build severely).

So it's not a surprise that people are asking for stamina-based damage to improve stam Edgar, since we still haven't wholly moved away from that solution to stamina builds, not even with some of our most recent stuff (Terra, Locke, Celes, Setzer).

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So I finally got the time to properly patch the game and start over. Played up through Ultros and Cyan’s scenario. 

Havent seen much of the crass language that the mod is usually criticized for. Was that cleaned up along the way? So far everything is really great. It’s nice to have to think about new random encounters (though it usually boils down to “what triggers the counterattack”), and status effects being relevant makes the combat much better. One suggestion I’d make is to make equipment management a bit easier. Whenever I go to a shop, it seems like every equipment gets the “this is an upgrade” triangle even when it is equal (haven’t tested worse yet). It kinda sucks to buy duplicate hard leathers or whatever early in the game. With so many relics being changed, it’s also kind of hard to track what they do since you only see the description on the equip screen. It would be nice if you could also see the description for currently equipped gear. Other than that, no complaints so far. Very excited to see how the game picks up once I reach Zozo. 

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On 5/8/2018 at 9:45 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

Something my OCD wishes to point out is that most stamina builds do have a stamina-based attack / heal that they rely upon or were critical to said builds being accepted as "good" builds. Terra, Locke, Sabin, Cyan, Gau, Mog, Setzer, they all fall in this category. Even Phantom Celes sorta hits on this with Cover/Counter (arguably Shadow too). Strago's lack of any specific use for stamina is perhaps a or even the major reason for why there's a noticeable portion of the players who hold little respect for said build, myself included. It's also part of why I think Mishrak is crazy for hyping up Crusader Celes so much when he could just play Siren Celes. (Relm's a weird case; she has a stamina-based heal, but the overlap with existing builds is strong, thereby devaluing her stam build severely).

So it's not a surprise that people are asking for stamina-based damage to improve stam Edgar, since we still haven't wholly moved away from that solution to stamina builds, not even with some of our most recent stuff (Terra, Locke, Celes, Setzer).

Celes does have a Stamina Attack too with her special hidden relic. I don't see the uniqueness issue, as it's kind of ubiquitous. Only Relm, Strago, Locke and Edgar don't have one. Locke and Edgar can through Omega Weapon. Relm has Regen X but a massive burst heal from that isn't a big deal considering she can burst heal with Cure 3 in a Magic Build. It's a bit hard to justify the use of Stamina Relm and when I did my Tier List on this page. Strago has Odin Summon, which is MP intensive but viable with heavy carbuncle investment, and gives him a 1 turn burst damage during a boss fight.

http://ngplus.net/index.php?/forums/topic/53-whos-your-mvp/&page=2

 

This Tier list was for 1.8, and the new stamina additions likely affect it. Unicorn Edgar probably jumps up to C Tier, but because the Cover mechanic is anti-synergistic with Stamina it's very limited. I could see him being a respectable team member if holding Omega Weapon and Nirvana Band so that his heals and damage output can at least be effective enough to not feel like a wasted turn.

 

Stamina Relm is frankly not tanky enough for the Counter mechanic to be useful and as I said earlier the stronger Regen X is irrelevant because Cure 3 exists for Burst heal. The trade off for Mag+ which is so powerful on her with Flare/Meteor/Osmose is too much. Next to Umaro, she is easily the worst character/build in my opinion, Umaro might actually be better. You could I suppose use Stamina Relm in the capacity of Regen X healer but even with high stamina her HP is so low that she can die easily. I struggle to see the upside. Even with Intercepter it's very underwhelming, and losing Shadow for that purpose is just plain silly.

 

 

Tier List Synopsis:

A Tier

A+ : Stamina Terra

A: Phoenix Locke

A-: Maduin Terra, Kirin Locke, Magic Edgar, Magic Celes, Magic Setzer

B Tier

B+: Vigor Edgar, Terrato Sabin, Crusader Celes, Vigor Cyan, Shadow, Gogo (infinite versatlity poor stats), Zoneseek Relm, Magic Strago, Stamina Setzer, Magic Mog

B: Vigor Locke, Vigor Celes, Maduin Mog, Vigor Mog, Speed Relm

B-: Bismarck Terra, Golem Sabin, Speed Gau

C Tier

C+: Stamina Cyan (late game), Stamina Gau (late game)

C: Stamina Strago

C-:  Stamina Sabin

D Tier

 D+:Unicorn Edgar

 D:Stamina Relm

 D-: Umaro (Uncontrollable almost no utility)

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I feel like we're partially losing sight here of what Stamina is even about, and asking it to be a better DPS stat is kinda missing the point of what it's even for in the first place, which is as a tanking stat against magic damage and statuses, while also offering some character specific utility. (Like Mog stumbling on Dance less.)
Like for me, the reason I enjoy Stamina Strago is because it lets me put him in the front row without having to worry about him dying letting him get full damage from his Rod hits, combine that with a Black Belt and he throws out a decent amount of free counters besides while I have him do other things.

I think part of the point of Unicorn Edgar is that he can be a good team tank, and with the newer inherent Cover bonus spears give he still gets both of his relic slots while other party members have to give up a slot for a Knight Cape or Hero Ring in order to do so, and besides that he gets the Gungnir which also gives him +50% hp at no downside, with the only other source of of +50% hp in the game having obvious big downsides that you have to build around to make it work.

Also remember part of the point in this hack is you can never have your cake and eat it too, being immortal is going to come at a cost if you go all in on it, and in this case that cost is doing rather mediocre damage, in fact it could be argued trying to attack with your tank should feel like a wasted turn, because you did that instead of using any of his utility options so someone else who does have the better damage doesn't have to do it and can attack instead.
Like have Edgar set slow instead of someone else, or have him open fights with Noiseblaster or Mute, that sort of thing, and leave the damage dealing to others that don't have to do the "Status Chores" because Edgar can already take care of them.

I'm going to say something crazy here and actually state that Unicorn Edgar's low damage might really be a good thing, see I notice Edgar has this huge amount of status utility that doesn't rely on any of his stats that I don't think is really getting fully capitalized upon because he's usually regulated to a damage role of some kind. (In fact in BTB's own utility list Edgar has the highest total amount of utility available out of anyone.)
Like suddenly what tool you use doesn't really have to do with trying to get out more damage anymore, you use Flash because you want to Blind enemies or Bio Blaster for the AoE Poison, not because of the damage itself.

So yeah crazy rant over, now I really feel like I wanna try out Unicorn Edgar on my next playthrough. (Along with a front row Stam/Speed Relm that focuses on Brush healing. lol)

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Posted (edited)

On 5/9/2018 at 8:32 AM, GeradFigaro said:

So I finally got the time to properly patch the game and start over. Played up through Ultros and Cyan’s scenario. 

Havent seen much of the crass language that the mod is usually criticized for. Was that cleaned up along the way? So far everything is really great. It’s nice to have to think about new random encounters (though it usually boils down to “what triggers the counterattack”), and status effects being relevant makes the combat much better. One suggestion I’d make is to make equipment management a bit easier. Whenever I go to a shop, it seems like every equipment gets the “this is an upgrade” triangle even when it is equal (haven’t tested worse yet). It kinda sucks to buy duplicate hard leathers or whatever early in the game. With so many relics being changed, it’s also kind of hard to track what they do since you only see the description on the equip screen. It would be nice if you could also see the description for currently equipped gear. Other than that, no complaints so far. Very excited to see how the game picks up once I reach Zozo. 

I think the "this is an upgrade" triangle got ditched completely. The triangle you see is simply telling you "this character can equip that item".

You have some information when it comes to attack power (I think just before you try and buy the item). My suggestion is to save the game before going in a shopping spree (and I believe there isn't an instance where you can't save right before shopping).

I think there's a hack that's been worked on to give a more comprehensive description of equip stats and properties inside the shops, so maybe we'll see that in future patches. For now, it's more about the game's own limitations when it comes to shops. For example, in the original game you'd get an "upgrade" symbol whenever attack (defense for armors) was higher. Nothing else was considered, stat drops or boosts, properties etc. and you had to figure it out on your own (and make it past the game telling you that you should buy that item when in reality it might not be the case).

As for the above discussion, Edgar's hella good already, doesn't need stamina to be really bulky, doesn't need vigor to do good phys damage, doesn't need magic to use his magic tools effectively. He's IMO the only character that could stay at EL 0 and still be darn useful. As consequence, any extra is just a plus to make him even more awesome. Giving him high stamina would make him just too good. 1.9 stam Celes is already borderline broken with little to no drawbacks to her build, Edgar on a stam attack spear with nirvana band (while still having access to tools, very good equipment, very good support magic) would make him into a jack of all trades (and master of all), trivialize the need for vigor (stam damage), and so on and so forth. From the stupidly versatile character that he is now, which can go dps, support, magic, physical, speedy, tanky (and sometimes he jumps in and covers too!) he would turn into a snorefest.

Want a spear wielder with high stam that never dies and takes hits for the party often? Use mog instead?

Edited by SpoonyBard
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Edgar can pretty much hit with every bad stat. Plus has the ability to nearly heal them all without items. Has access to inherant haste. Plus the use of golem. Plus all the other arguments above.

Like it was described in the beginner school, you don't need to worry about how you build your characters to beat the game.

I think a lot of thought has already gone into how the characters are built and what they have access to. Compared to vanilla, where there is definate standouts. In BNW you can just pick the lowest leveled characters (unless you want to steal something) up stats without paying too much attention, and have at it.

Always seems to work for me.

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10 hours ago, GamingFiend said:

Celes does have a Stamina Attack too with her special hidden relic. I don't see the uniqueness issue, as it's kind of ubiquitous. Only Relm, Strago, Locke and Edgar don't have one. Locke and Edgar can through Omega Weapon. Relm has Regen X but a massive burst heal from that isn't a big deal considering she can burst heal with Cure 3 in a Magic Build. It's a bit hard to justify the use of Stamina Relm and when I did my Tier List on this page. Strago has Odin Summon, which is MP intensive but viable with heavy carbuncle investment, and gives him a 1 turn burst damage during a boss fight.

http://ngplus.net/index.php?/forums/topic/53-whos-your-mvp/&page=2

 

This Tier list was for 1.8, and the new stamina additions likely affect it. Unicorn Edgar probably jumps up to C Tier, but because the Cover mechanic is anti-synergistic with Stamina it's very limited. I could see him being a respectable team member if holding Omega Weapon and Nirvana Band so that his heals and damage output can at least be effective enough to not feel like a wasted turn.

 

Stamina Relm is frankly not tanky enough for the Counter mechanic to be useful and as I said earlier the stronger Regen X is irrelevant because Cure 3 exists for Burst heal. The trade off for Mag+ which is so powerful on her with Flare/Meteor/Osmose is too much. Next to Umaro, she is easily the worst character/build in my opinion, Umaro might actually be better. You could I suppose use Stamina Relm in the capacity of Regen X healer but even with high stamina her HP is so low that she can die easily. I struggle to see the upside. Even with Intercepter it's very underwhelming, and losing Shadow for that purpose is just plain silly.

 

 

Tier List Synopsis:

A Tier

A+ : Stamina Terra

A: Phoenix Locke

A-: Maduin Terra, Kirin Locke, Magic Edgar, Magic Celes, Magic Setzer

B Tier

B+: Vigor Edgar, Terrato Sabin, Crusader Celes, Vigor Cyan, Shadow, Gogo (infinite versatlity poor stats), Zoneseek Relm, Magic Strago, Stamina Setzer, Magic Mog

B: Vigor Locke, Vigor Celes, Maduin Mog, Vigor Mog, Speed Relm

B-: Bismarck Terra, Golem Sabin, Speed Gau

C Tier

C+: Stamina Cyan (late game), Stamina Gau (late game)

C: Stamina Strago

C-:  Stamina Sabin

D Tier

 D+:Unicorn Edgar

 D:Stamina Relm

 D-: Umaro (Uncontrollable almost no utility)

Everything you’ve listed as B or lower I personally have listed as an A at some point. 

What your post tells me is what you like and dislike. Nothing more. 

The reality is every character and every build thrives at what they do if you utilize them well. 

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Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, A Dummy said:

Stuff

A Dummy, I fully agree with you that stamina should be a defensive stat, not an offensive one. Rather, what my implication was, was that, in practice, stamina doesn't achieve that goal. In practice, we have in the past, and continue to this day, to rely upon stamina-based damage / healing in order to shore up the flaws in stamina builds. And I contend that we do this because, inherently, despite the high number of mechanics stamina affects, most of them are simply trivial in their affect. Stamina is nice to have, but when its competing with HP, speed, MP, and one of vig or mag, it gets the shaft.

EDIT: Though I should still be thanking you for saying what you did say. Sorry. >_>

For example: increasing stamina on Strago doesn't do nothing. It does have some minor affects. Mostly noticeable with some extra resistance to suffering a status, or with perhaps surviving a strong, endgame itd attack that he wouldn't otherwise. The problem is that:

  • Stamina's effect on the status game is of significantly less importance than simply equipping a status relic or bringing Harvester
  • "Magical damage variance", because of the damage numbers and stamina stat needed to even see an effect, basically doesn't exist. When it does, raw mg.def or elemental defense is more important. It's only for big, endgame itd attacks that it really matters, and the character still needs to be healed afterwards. It's really only useful if it prevents a OHKO, which is a mighty fine line to walk, and also one that is immediately solved by grabbing another level.
  • Counter still has a high base chance of working, so it competes directly with mag Strago's extra damage
  • Stamina has no other synergy with anything else Strago does. Even the Life Bell + Holy Wind combo is practically unaffects by extra regen ticks from stamina.
  • Magic improves Strago's elemental dps and his off-turn Black Omen damage. Even for a mostly support Strago, it's highly questionable just how useful stamina is compared to more magic

Similar arguments can be made for other characters. For example, look at the history of stam Terra and stam Locke. Terra had a special stamina-based mechanic. But when did those two builds really become "accepted" as solid builds? When Omega was fixed.

Now, 1.9's new stamina-based Cover mechanic is a very good step in the right direction for stamina. I agree that it can and should open the possibilities for pure tanking builds. But let's not forget that stamina is still shaky in its overall utility and still struggles to fully break away from the "filler stat" it was in vanilla. Let's also not forget that Cover is commonly paired with Counter, and....welll.....Counter is basically a stamina-based attack, of a sorts. So....again, we're still relying on stamina-based damage to shore up the weakness of the stamina stat.

Part of the reason why I played Atma without status relics / Harvester in my recent NHT run was so that I could get hard data on just how much I can rely on stamina. While a wee bit unfair (Mind Blast is awful, stamina's still low in the WoB), it's not data totally dissimilar to what I've experienced before. Using stamina for its defensive effects is questionable when you can get mostly the same thing from equips / skills (Harvester) and simply increase your other stats. A little less defensive of a character, but not significantly, a the result if a character far more versatile.

For Unicorn Edgar, I agree he should be a pure tank. I agree that relying mostly on status support and some healing/damage is a fine design. In design, his only major problem is a severe lack of stamina by which to actually, well, tank! However, in practice, the sheer versatility of other Cover tank builds - versatility in both damage output, healing, and other utility - will make Unicorn's life difficult, especially if he doesn't have a significant advantage in bulk or Cover%. Also, his other major supprting build, Siren Edgar, has a huge advantage even in status control / party support, AND can summon Golem (for a brief period), AND throw out Safe. Also, there's this elephant in the room called "Image spam", which further makes it questionable how much resources should be devoted to a pure tanking build. (Golem, thankfully, seems to have been nerfed enough to not also be a problem, but let's not completely ignore him either, lest we overlook something).

Let's also not forget that Gungnir is endgame only. There's still a big midgame (WoR) where Unicorn Edgar needs to function.

***

I wish to respond to GamingFiend later, but I don't have time. Suffice to say, I'm more willing than Mishrak to tier the characters, and I definitely agree that stam Relm is inherently inferior to mag Relm, for much of the same reasons that GamingFiend listed.

Some people are bringing up the worry of making Edgar too good. I agree with that. No further comment right now, not enough time. My statements on stamina still stand.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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Just gonna throw this out there, but random encounter rate gets a little crazy at times. Two steps is not enough.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, GeradFigaro said:

Just gonna throw this out there, but random encounter rate gets a little crazy at times. Two steps is not enough.

...I'm not having this issue at all. Infact no one has been having this sort of issue. So there's likely something funky going on with your end of things. The issue now is figuring out where and why.

First, have you applied the encounter patch? If not, it can be found HERE. The patch will be automatically applied to 1.9.1 and/or 2.0 should no other major problems pop up (meaning you won't need to apply the encounter patch next update), but if you have not used this patch here, you should apply it to fix your problem.

Second, do you know if your ROM file is headered or unheadered? A lot of newbies aren't aware that there are two different types of roms, and applying the wrong patch types can create issues. So if you have a headered ROM (something you can check with some various modding tools for FF6), you need to use headered patches, and vice versa with unheadered roms/patches.

Hopefully this reply of mine will help you solve the issues you are having here with that.^_^

Edited by GLH
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It's not just him. I remember having a case or two of nastily high encounter rate when playing Nowea Hard Type.

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The encounter rate is what it is, if you get an unlucky streak of RNG you might have a string of encounters all within a handful of steps. It should never be less than two steps though, so if that happens, something is indeed wrong.

The overall encounter rate should be something like five encounters per 100 steps or so; I forget exactly. Applying my encounter patch should raise the floor a bit, as well as lowering the encounter rate somewhat. I'm uncertain whether BTB intends to include it in the next update in its current state.

 

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It should never be less than two, but keyword there is should. I did have probably 8? 1-step encounters in a row. It’s in one of the highlighted vods during the end of the IMTRF segment.  This was unpatched too.

 

The encounter rate patch didn’t appear to be working correctly from my experience. 

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9 hours ago, seibaby said:

The encounter rate is what it is, if you get an unlucky streak of RNG you might have a string of encounters all within a handful of steps. It should never be less than two steps though, so if that happens, something is indeed wrong.

The overall encounter rate should be something like five encounters per 100 steps or so; I forget exactly. Applying my encounter patch should raise the floor a bit, as well as lowering the encounter rate somewhat. I'm uncertain whether BTB intends to include it in the next update in its current state.

 

I asked you about it in Discord the other day because the last I heard from testing of your patch, it wasn't working.

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