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Who's your MVP?

Who's your MVP?   43 members have voted

  1. 1. Which d00d is best d00d?

    • Terra
      7
    • Locke
      2
    • Cyan
      2
    • Shadow
      1
    • Edgar
      4
    • Sabin
      7
    • Celes
      6
    • Strago
      1
    • Relm
      1
    • Setzer
      3
    • Gau
      2
    • Mog
      2
    • Umaro
      2
    • Gogo
      2

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55 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, SharmatOfLove said:

But yeah... anything he can do, someone as can probably do better - or with more support or healing options available - but as a crutch character who's builds clearly define what he'll perform best in, Cyan's the best. 

There is one thing Cyan does better than most characters: Provide effectively infinite item-free out-of-combat healing and revival. He knows Cure, Cure2, and Life, and Empowerer will almost always restore him to full MP if there's any enemy in a random that has MP to steal. Sure, he's too slow and low on Magic to be a battle healer, but outside combat Speed doesn't matter. Plus he's not generally spending his MP in randoms anyway, so he might very well go 2-3 battles before needing to Empowerer. As long as you top him off, he can sustain your group forever. Only Magic Edgar can really do the same thing if he Mana Batteries himself now and again, but Edgar doesn't have Cure or Life, and the Defibrillator doesn't work out of combat. Cyan saves you Dried Meat and Tonics, but perhaps more crucially he saves you Phoenix Downs. And the odds he'll be alive after a fight are... well, pretty high, let's be honest, if anybody in the party is alive after a fight.

2 hours ago, SharmatOfLove said:

On that: anyone who enlighten me why Setzer gets a decent share of votes? After two playthrough, I don't really see the appeal in his rather limited magic pool or equipment choice (tried both Magic build + Dice and Stam build + 2X Doom darts) but aside from free heals there wasn't anything that set him apart. Maybe it's because I suck balls at slots or just missing the obvious...

Slots is really good now that it's skill-based for one thing, meaning Go Fish stretches his MP a looooooooong way (and you'll almost never accidentally fail to fail if you want Go Fish anymore), and Setzer isn't a character who has a low MP pool to begin with. That gives him lots of utility with the MP to spam Rerise/Remedy/Regen or go all out with Bio against a weakness and never be in a position where he can't AoE heal the party or attack the enemy because Slots is free. His Stamina build can use RegenX as a primary heal since his damage sources are not MP dependent (Slots is free, GP Toss doesn't cost MP, and Daryl's Soul makes Fight more efficient), which is basically a full party heal plus constantly reapplying one of the best buffs after Haste. He is a staggeringly efficient healer -- Gau and Mog are too but Go Fish can happen 99.99% of the time instead of 2/3 or 7/16ths of the time and that matters when you need a heal now -- even if he isn't a particularly exciting one.

Equipment-wise he's got heavy armor and great shield access plus a +HP/MP Esper available right away which just makes him tanky as hell regardless of build, and gives him some viability as a dual wielder with Daryl's Soul since he isn't going to explode if a hit gets through his evasion like Locke or Shadow might. Less damage sure but there are anti-Human daggers and Dice/Fixed Dice get around the limitations of X-Fight while also ignoring defense. He can also back row with his cards/darts, some of which proc stuff that also gets around X-Fight. Also worth noting that his Speed's not even that bad and he has +Speed equipment options like the Aegis Shield (or Switchblade/Avenger, or Heiji's Coin...) that other slow characters like Strago or Cyan would kill for.

Really the main thing about Setzer is he can always contribute. He never runs out of gas, and he can change up his offensive and defensive options to be what the party needs him to be.

Edited by Nakar
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Yeah, Cyan is easily BNW's best OOB patch-up guy.
As for Setzer, my opinion is that he's the bulkiest of all the game's primary healers.
 

Edited by BTB
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Changed my vote to Cyan, as he's usually my #2 and he needs some love right now.

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Setzer's great as a bulky healer, who can occasionally contribute some offensive power. Even if Slots are too difficult, he can still summon Shoat for randoms or, against the appropriate enemy, can can equip Daryl's Soul + Power Glove + Man Eater / Avenger x2 for some great damage while still wearing heavy armor. Daryl's Soul + Fixed Dice is random, but for a healer, it's pretty sick.

My guess is that you'd be happy if you only took enough Magic ELs to keep Cure 3 strong, and then dedicated the rest to HP/MP. Something like an even Seraph/Shoat split, or maybe even more Seraph than Shoat.

I'm not a fan of Setzer's other options outside of this or Slots Spam (which takes finger skill & concentration, unlike anything else in BNW). Bio's weak, which means mag Setzer has no attacking options if Slots is too difficult. And I was very disappointed with stam Setzer in 1.7, and it doesn't look like he's changed terribly much (excepting the Starlet equip).

*****

Another thing (stam) Cyan does arguably better than others is provide a solid mid-game tank (Magitek Factory thru early WoR). Figaro Bros aside, I'm not sure any other character quite has stam Cyan's combination of offense + defense in the midgame, and even Sabin's debatable on the defensive side (especially if he went the stamina route). stam Cyan does drop off offensively around endgame though, especially in 1.7 and 1.8. At least he's still rocking one of the highest HP values in the game.

*****

Lookin' at the votes & what I've been thinkin' lately, starting to think that vig Sabin may be a cut above the rest of the cast. (Not a big fan of stam Sabin though, and I don't remember how many votes are there b/c of stam Sabin).

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5 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Lookin' at the votes & what I've been thinkin' lately, starting to think that vig Sabin may be a cut above the rest of the cast. (Not a big fan of stam Sabin though, and I don't remember how many votes are there b/c of stam Sabin).

72 it's the magic number for stamina: You can reliably sustain lvl 2/2.5 spells like Break,Storm and Bio or heavy hitters like Quake, Dark and Quartz using Chakra without issues and heal 630 Hp per Mantra (Or you know, use Cure 2 since Mantra it's not worth using in the first place) at lvl 30 . Reaching that number needs at minimum 10 Stray and 10 stamina points from equipment. 

When that happens, You can stack like crazy vigor+ equipment and be a decent evade tank that does actual damage (You can stack as far as 80 vigor while having 60 speed with just only 10 Golem)

Edit: Take note I'm just using 20 EL, otherwise Sabin can just shrug it since 5 terrato solve pretty much that

Edited by ronlyn
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Interesting. Thanks.

My main issue with Chakra is still that, as far as I'm concerned, in order to be worth sacrificing a good damage dealer (Bum Rush), I'd need at least two very Chakra reliant users on the team who are good enough to make up the difference, while being ineffective when they're not being fueled by Chakra. I've never been convinced that any character really needs MP support outside of X-Mog & X-Locke. With the Osmose nerf, though, Relm may be added to the list, so maybe I'll find Chakra spam more palatable.

Shame to hear that Mantra still isn't too hot. Guess it still isn't even that great as a utility tool for hyb Sabin? As I'm running a hyb Sabin with some Terrato this game.

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20 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Interesting. Thanks.

My main issue with Chakra is still that, as far as I'm concerned, in order to be worth sacrificing a good damage dealer (Bum Rush), I'd need at least two very Chakra reliant users on the team who are good enough to make up the difference, while being ineffective when they're not being fueled by Chakra. I've never been convinced that any character really needs MP support outside of X-Mog & X-Locke. With the Osmose nerf, though, Relm may be added to the list, so maybe I'll find Chakra spam more palatable.

Shame to hear that Mantra still isn't too hot. Guess it still isn't even that great as a utility tool for hyb Sabin? As I'm running a hyb Sabin with some Terrato this game.

The real problem with mantra is...........You won't have Sabin at max hp all time and you need a healer to make sure mantra has something going on in the first place (And yes it's free, but no because you can miss the input or do chakra by mistake)

 

Hybrid Sabin it's all about fists to the face and AoE MP charges so if that's not your style, you might prefer Vigor Sabin for more flashing moves and better DPS but with the drawback of severe allergy to magic (And really, who don't like seeing a guy suplexing a frigging train?!?!?)

Edited by ronlyn
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I've never been a fan of Mantra, not because it's weak but because it doesn't heal Sabin. If I'm using Stamina Sabin I'm using him for Chakra, and if I'm doing that then I presumably have some MP hog in the party like Locke or Terra, who can toss out a potent heal fairly easily. I guess it's okay for emergencies but other than that I don't want Sabin not getting healed. Comparatively speaking Magic Edgar fares a bit better. Yeah Mana Battery isn't MT but it can be potent, Edgar's Cure 2 is a reasonable heal with a Magic build that also heals himself, and he retains some decent offense options (breaking rods, Jump with elemental swords, and the Flash to blast randoms). Nothing fantastic but it still feels like more than Stamina Sabin brings to the table.

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Don't forget that mag Edgar also has:

  • A powerful, spammable revive
  • Speed
  • No waiting on a late-WoR esper for his HP (like Terrato)

Also, I believe the "only ST, but stronger" Mana Battery fairs better in general team building. If there's only one MP hog on the team, than Battery is better than Chakra. Traditionally, I've only really considered X-Locke or X-Mog as big enough MP hogs to warrant MP support, and I'm guessing it's quite rare for anyone to put them both on the team. Osmose is nerfed now - dunno if that means Relm needs MP support, or if she's still manageable without. Some people like low MP builds, so I guess that could boost the number of teammates who need Chakra support instead of Battery support.

*****

Flavor-wise, I like how Mantra doesn't heal Sabin. It's unique. Not every heal has to be "Heals everyone for a gazillion HP with no drawbacks, & its perfectly spammable". IIRC, for a Life Bell stam Sabin committed to spamming Mantra & Chakra, it's not bad.

The problem is that it's not up to par with the standard set by Cure 2, Cure 3, RegenX, Tumbleweed, Go Fish, Holy Wind, or even just spamming Potions with a fast character. I'd take stam Sabin's Mantra over stam Mog's Forest Suite, but that's about it. The other problem is that stam Sabin doesn't do anything BUT spam Mantra & Chakra. And...well...when Mantra is the 2nd worst endgame heal, when Aurabolt is THE worst endgame damage source, and when Chakra is arguably not all that hot / too niche / outdone by Battery...you're left with a build that's "Average, but not up to par with the bar set by the rest of the cast." Iunno if it's power creep in the rest of the cast, or if stam Sabin's just weak.

Oh well, I'm committed to trying out hyb Sabin at least. If Chakra doesn't turn out despite the nerfed Osmose & using X-Mog, Sabin can at least fall back on Bum Rush + Terrato ELs.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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There's something about seeing '9999' that delights me, so I'm gonna have to go with Umaro, since he has the easiest time hitting it.

(Admittedly, I'm still only playing v1.7.0, so I might have to revise this if I ever try out a newer version.)

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Still torn between Edgar, Sabin, and Cyan. vig Edgar, vig Sabin, and stam Cyan are just plain beautiful. Gonna stick with Edgar, mostly b/c his other build (mag) is also really awesome, while vig cyan is a heavy late bloomer and stam Sabin is mediocre. Also b/c vig Edgar can go toe-to-toe with the other two builds, though the other two are even easier to use.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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Would like to change my vote from Sabin to Terra.

 

Terra with 20 Bismark, and 5 Pheonix (I don't believe in that "don't go past EL 20" crap), and Morphed makes her hit harder than any character in the game period. Giving her a Zantetsuken and Wing Edge (You can replace Zantetsuken with whatever) is absolutely OP. Wing Edge alone breaks the damage cap every time it crits (Which is more often than not for her for some reason)

 

Couple that with the fact that she has the best spell selection in the game (in my eyes) and while Morphed, even without boosting her magic at all still hits harder than most, she can dish out damage to any enemy, period.

 

Need physical damage? Terra's got your back, and about a million other backs to go with it. Nothing is more satisfying than landing something like 15,000 damage in a single attack. Even better when you get two in a row due to counter attacks (Which Zantetsuken gives inherently, saving a Relic slot) Double Wing Edge is also probably an option, but I don't know how to get a second one (Colliseum probably) Either way, Zantetsuken + front row is probably worth it just for instant kill/critical/counter alone.

Need magical damage? She's got that too.
Need to spike a weakness? Terra has pretty much every element that matters save for Poison and Earth. She has the best versions of all three primary elements, the only character to do so.

Need to heal, revive, remedy, or regen? Terra has all of those, and even if she isn't Morphed, none of those really matter based on magic, save for healing, and even that still heals for alot when not Morphed with zero magic investment, and Pheonix levels ensure that, while her magic may not be as high as a more magic focused one, she can make up for it with massive MP storage, which will feel even bigger than a Magic type Terra simply on the grounds that you'll be spending far more time hitting things instead.

Need to tank magic? Minerva lets her pretty much make the basic elements a joke, and compromises very little of her Vigor in exchange for it (In the event you planned on using Genji Armor or something like I did)

Need to tank physical attacks? Yes, Terra can even do that too, and yes, while Morphed, WITHOUT having to rely on Safe/Image (Although it certainly helps alot) Yes, she still takes all fuckloads of damage, but investing a mere 5 levels into Pheonix (20 Bismark is MORE than enough. You can really get by with just 15) gives her 150 HP and 75 MP, which is a huge boost. With 10 levels, it's 300 HP and 150 MP. By the time I fought Kefka, she was only at like level 35 tops and still had basicaly 2000 HP. (Granted, I used the Hero Ring at one point) which means, yes, she'll still be taking like 1200 damaage when she should really only take like 900 or so, but if Terra survives with even 1 point of health, she's golden, since you can fully heal her with even the crappiest of heals (Morph = more heal too) and even if you're too busy/lazy to do it, just have Regen on her before hand, and she'll end up getting 250 HP PER TICK! 6 - 8 ticks later, and she's fully healed. I'm not sure if even 25 Stray Sabin can regen that much. Keep in mind, all of this happened in the front row. I simply had THAT much HP to spare.

 

The only real downside to this build is pretty much what I just negated a minute ago; she's too damn frail. Yes, I know what I said, but everything was golden.... until Kefka's tower. She was fine (great even) against randoms, but she really struggled against the bosses, particularly Kefka (Tier 1 and 2 mostly) She simply died too quickly. Best case scenario, I Morphed and got 1 attack off before she died and I had to do it all over again. Fortunately, this can be mitigated quite well with equipment, but against defense ignoring attacks and the like, she's boned. There's also speed, but that's a lesser issue, as Haste makes anyone's speed manageable at the very least.

 

That being said, this makes her MVP pretty much from the Sealed Cave sequence to Kefka's Tower, which is a long gap. She's absent during Act 2, but if she was available, she'd still be one of the best characters, seeing as she's still one of the better characters in Act 1, before Magicite is a thing.

 

 

 

Edited by MagiteKira
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Good to see someone besides the Figaro bros. get the vote. I'm starting to like vig Terra myself as well. Especially looking forward to 1.8.7, where she'll have a WoR Rune Edge to handle the early-WoR. Also will chime in that she is just as great an elemental mage and cleric Terra & that her regen ticks are beautiful. Didn't do much with dual-wielding last game, will have to try out Wingsuken vs. Apocalypse vs. Apocalysedge.

2 hours ago, MagiteKira said:

The only real downside to this build is pretty much what I just negated a minute ago; she's too damn frail. Yes, I know what I said, but everything was golden.... until Kefka's tower. She was fine (great even) against randoms, but she really struggled against the bosses, particularly Kefka (Tier 1 and 2 mostly) She simply died too quickly. Best case scenario, I Morphed and got 1 attack off before she died and I had to do it all over again. Fortunately, this can be mitigated quite well with equipment, but against defense ignoring attacks and the like, she's boned. There's also speed, but that's a lesser issue, as Haste makes anyone's speed manageable at the very least.

Kira, if it's helpful, I prefer bringing vig Terra onto Team 2 of Kefka's Tower, where she'll fight Atma, Bolt Dragon, and Myria. She can defend herself against Myria's attacks with a Crystal Helm/Shield, Minerva, Image support, and, optionally, a status relic. Such defenses are tailor-made to declaw Myria, allowing Terra to Morph with impunity and easily break the damage cap (even moreso, now that Myria's p.def has been lowered - dual wielding should break the poor goddess in half). Could even be cute and two-hand Excalibur with no Power Glove, just Black Belt & Ribbon. Should still hit 9999. As for the other two, Bolt Dragon is also easily countered with Minerva & Image, allowing for Morph to break him. Atma can also be attacked with Morph Ice 3 (8k damage, IIRC), followed up with some Morph Icebrand (or, ya' know, be smart, unlike me, and wait for phase 2 before slinging Ice 3 - though Rasp may have a word to say about that strategy).

Her frailty is an issue, and I definitely prefer giving her 8-10 Phoenix or Unicorn ELs so that she doesn't drop in one hit. If you plan on Morphing in the WoR prior to Phoenix, you will need Unicorn. Pure vigor is fine for the WoB, but Morph croaks too quickly against WoR bosses without HP ELs. (I agree that Phoenix is better statistically and opens up very strong elemental mage options). Not surprised you had trouble with Morph in the final fight. That sounds absolutely awful.

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22 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Good to see someone besides the Figaro bros. get the vote. I'm starting to like vig Terra myself as well. Especially looking forward to 1.8.7, where she'll have a WoR Rune Edge to handle the early-WoR. Also will chime in that she is just as great an elemental mage and cleric Terra & that her regen ticks are beautiful. Didn't do much with dual-wielding last game, will have to try out Wingsuken vs. Apocalypse vs. Apocalysedge.

Kira, if it's helpful, I prefer bringing vig Terra onto Team 2 of Kefka's Tower, where she'll fight Atma, Bolt Dragon, and Myria. She can defend herself against Myria's attacks with a Crystal Helm/Shield, Minerva, Image support, and, optionally, a status relic. Such defenses are tailor-made to declaw Myria, allowing Terra to Morph with impunity and easily break the damage cap (even moreso, now that Myria's p.def has been lowered - dual wielding should break the poor goddess in half). Could even be cute and two-hand Excalibur with no Power Glove, just Black Belt & Ribbon. Should still hit 9999. As for the other two, Bolt Dragon is also easily countered with Minerva & Image, allowing for Morph to break him. Atma can also be attacked with Morph Ice 3 (8k damage, IIRC), followed up with some Morph Icebrand (or, ya' know, be smart, unlike me, and wait for phase 2 before slinging Ice 3 - though Rasp may have a word to say about that strategy).

Her frailty is an issue, and I definitely prefer giving her 8-10 Phoenix or Unicorn ELs so that she doesn't drop in one hit. If you plan on Morphing in the WoR prior to Phoenix, you will need Unicorn. Pure vigor is fine for the WoB, but Morph croaks too quickly against WoR bosses without HP ELs. (I agree that Phoenix is better statistically and opens up very strong elemental mage options). Not surprised you had trouble with Morph in the final fight. That sounds absolutely awful.

Yeah, right as I was making the teams, I remember your comment from before, but didn't have the interenet access at the same to reconfirm who fights what, so I kinda had to wing it abit. Thanks for the tips though.

 

I had to have Pheonix Locke, Siren Edgar, Golem Sabin, and Fenrir Gau (Basically almost completely a support team) go against Atma and it.... it was awful.

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42 minutes ago, MagiteKira said:

Yeah, right as I was making the teams, I remember your comment from before, but didn't have the interenet access at the same to reconfirm who fights what, so I kinda had to wing it abit. Thanks for the tips though.

 

I had to have Pheonix Locke, Siren Edgar, Golem Sabin, and Fenrir Gau (Basically almost completely a support team) go against Atma and it.... it was awful.

Welcome.

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I'm going to have to put in a big vote for my wildboy Gau. Gau has always been one of my favorite characters with his whole feral child vibe, but the endless rage lists in Vanilla was pretty overwhelming to a 10-year old(although an early Templar rage was pretty cool!). A big draw for my BNW experience was Gau's overhaul breathing new life into the beautiful mess that is Rage.

The best part of Gau BNW or otherwise is he's your first non-Esper or Dr. Frankenstein'd source of magic. Terra's basically half alien and the government has a secret baby-torture program to breed living weapons, most of the world's population is pretty sure magic is a myth ...meanwhile here's some illiterate raised-by-wolves kid casually busting out Fire 2.
 

This is still my first run starting from 1.8.4 but let's break it down so far:

- Gau joined in for Sabin's separation arc. AoE attacks are still at a rare premium, in pops the Leafer morph with a free AoE guaranteed on every turn. Between Cyan and Sabin you don't have a free heal to stretch your supplies, but Solider has an occasional Remedy as icing on some decent damage. And when all else fails, x3 damage from Tek Armor is great and the Laser hasn't fallen off quite yet.

- Did I mention the free Reraise spam via Conjurer?

- In Narshe he teams up with Celes or Terra for some stacked AoE damage. Solid stuff.

- Magitek Lab comes online with Espers. Now there's only Stray available, and Gau's in my party 24/7, so he's getting some massive Stamina boosts quick. Defender and Rhinotaur are starting to come online for some powerful, although riskier heals.

- Thamasa is the turning point here. Up until now, Gau was utilitarian with good AoE damage, but no major-leaguer for single target. My first Cephalid morph was a "hey maybe I'll try this" moment that shocked with multi-thousand damage. As his stamina stacked it just got more absurd, I wasn't referencing the PrintMe much at this point but it was pretty clear Tentacle was scaling with stam. Now every turn he has is a 2/3 chance of massive AoE output or a single instant-kill on the Floating Continent.

 

Gau's been my heaviest hitter since, rivaled only by Vigor Cyan and the eventual Rage Belt Umaro. At low 30s he's clocking 7k+ Shrapnel hits. His build is just a full-bore glass cannon with Sprint Shoes and Blizzard Orb. If Gau rolls Shrapnel first turn, the encounter's over. Fanatic Tower was a joke with consistent, element-free AoE nukes(up until Magimaster, who just slaps him for not using magic and heals the 8k hits with elixirs). He's fragile, but a healer topping him off and keeping him buffed with Reraise handles that well enough. Gau has registered more damage my whole run than most of the other characters combined. And if that isn't enough for the encounter, he plays a great pinch support with Harvester and Sun Baths(Silver Dragon thaws anyone?) upwards of 1k.


So the MVP of my run? Wildboy Gau, roughing them up and shutting them down. Filled a much needed role at nearly every story point, runs on autopilot, eventually transitioning to a damage-dealing deathmachine. All for 0 mana.
 

 

TL;DR: Full stam, sprint shoes Gau. Hits like a truck, loves the word Thou, thinks he's a squid.

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23 hours ago, GreenSun said:

I'm going to have to put in a big vote for my wildboy Gau. Gau has always been one of my favorite characters with his whole feral child vibe, but the endless rage lists in Vanilla was pretty overwhelming to a 10-year old(although an early Templar rage was pretty cool!). A big draw for my BNW experience was Gau's overhaul breathing new life into the beautiful mess that is Rage.

The best part of Gau BNW or otherwise is he's your first non-Esper or Dr. Frankenstein'd source of magic. Terra's basically half alien and the government has a secret baby-torture program to breed living weapons, most of the world's population is pretty sure magic is a myth ...meanwhile here's some illiterate raised-by-wolves kid casually busting out Fire 2.
 

This is still my first run starting from 1.8.4 but let's break it down so far:

- Gau joined in for Sabin's separation arc. AoE attacks are still at a rare premium, in pops the Leafer morph with a free AoE guaranteed on every turn. Between Cyan and Sabin you don't have a free heal to stretch your supplies, but Solider has an occasional Remedy as icing on some decent damage. And when all else fails, x3 damage from Tek Armor is great and the Laser hasn't fallen off quite yet.

- Did I mention the free Reraise spam via Conjurer?

- In Narshe he teams up with Celes or Terra for some stacked AoE damage. Solid stuff.

- Magitek Lab comes online with Espers. Now there's only Stray available, and Gau's in my party 24/7, so he's getting some massive Stamina boosts quick. Defender and Rhinotaur are starting to come online for some powerful, although riskier heals.

- Thamasa is the turning point here. Up until now, Gau was utilitarian with good AoE damage, but no major-leaguer for single target. My first Cephalid morph was a "hey maybe I'll try this" moment that shocked with multi-thousand damage. As his stamina stacked it just got more absurd, I wasn't referencing the PrintMe much at this point but it was pretty clear Tentacle was scaling with stam. Now every turn he has is a 2/3 chance of massive AoE output or a single instant-kill on the Floating Continent.

 

Gau's been my heaviest hitter since, rivaled only by Vigor Cyan and the eventual Rage Belt Umaro. At low 30s he's clocking 7k+ Shrapnel hits. His build is just a full-bore glass cannon with Sprint Shoes and Blizzard Orb. If Gau rolls Shrapnel first turn, the encounter's over. Fanatic Tower was a joke with consistent, element-free AoE nukes(up until Magimaster, who just slaps him for not using magic and heals the 8k hits with elixirs). He's fragile, but a healer topping him off and keeping him buffed with Reraise handles that well enough. Gau has registered more damage my whole run than most of the other characters combined. And if that isn't enough for the encounter, he plays a great pinch support with Harvester and Sun Baths(Silver Dragon thaws anyone?) upwards of 1k.


So the MVP of my run? Wildboy Gau, roughing them up and shutting them down. Filled a much needed role at nearly every story point, runs on autopilot, eventually transitioning to a damage-dealing deathmachine. All for 0 mana.
 

 

TL;DR: Full stam, sprint shoes Gau. Hits like a truck, loves the word Thou, thinks he's a squid.

I can agree with pretty much all of that. I never really went Stam Gau past WoB though, opting instead for Speed Gau, mostly for Rerise spams and Harvester (Weaker, but Remedy is Remedy)

I'll definitely do Stam Gau next time.

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Posting for posterity that in vanilla, I'd sabin (tank), Cyan (dps), Celes (magic) and then one "fun" character like Relm to control after getting a fake mustache or gau if farming rages. Strago often made a wonderful healer if I was having difficulty.

I'll edit this post last after finishing a BNW run, though

Edited by TheRebalancer
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I made my own personal analysis below, a tier list of sorts. It's hard to break individual characters into a tier because of how many different builds they have. For the sake of this analysis I'll be looking at end-game builds (So the fact Stray Gau and Kirin Cyan are incredible in WoB doesn't factor into the ranking) and not considering Hybrid builds, just the more extreme focused builds. This is also for 1.86, many builds that are low on here may get a significant boost in 1.9. It's also only my opinion, and I may not realize the full potential of certain builds I ranked as lower.

 

Terra: 

Maduin (Magic) Build-(A-) Mostly Maduin with some Carbuncle for MP makes for an incredible potent mage who can reliably hit 9999 cap from backrow, and since Magic and MP are linked to Stamina being in Morphed form isn't as detrimental as it might seem. Really capitalizes on Terra' offensive and restorative strengths and superior regen ticks

Bismarck (Vigor) Build (B-)- The ultimate glass cannon, astonishingly squishy in morphed form and requires a LOT of support to stay alive but is capable of dishing out arguable the best damage in the game. Does not make the best use of one of Terra' best assests, her incredible spell list. The frailty of the build prevents this from being any higher in my eyes. No Stamina focus which is so paramount to Morph and her regen ticks.

Stamina Build (Unicorn OR Tritoch Focused) Build (A+)- Mixed in with a few Carbuncles levels to provide MP is IMO Terra' strongest build and also IMO the best build of the game.  It eclipses Maduin build because having higher HP and Stamina correlates to much more survivability and Terra is able to damage cap without Maduin evels and RegenX/Life 2/Reraise makes her the quite possibly the best white mage  of the game, only possibly beaten by a Sage-Stone Locke. Terra doesn't lose out on much by not building Magic and gains so much here. Factor in Omega Weapon and Gem Box to bring this build just way over the top. She's a Tank, a Offensive Powerhouse with access to almost every possible weakness and a Primary Healer all together in one incredible package. As a side note, a Phoenix Terra is viable too, but you're so much better off simply going a few Carbuncle levels for MP than switching to Unicorn if you're considering that route due to how important Stamina is on her.

Locke: 

Vigor (Ramuh) Build- (B)- Gau and Shadow are somewhat forced into DPS/Glass Cannon type builds due to lack of options, and both of them can do a lot more damage than Locke. This build makes Locke to frail to be a very reliable Healer and Double Life 2 user but also somewhat redundant and unnecessary when you already have Gau and Shadow to fill in for this role. Locke's access to very good evasion helps but magic damage will tear this Locke apart and fails to capitalize on Locke's best assets. This build can work great though if you're very careful. I believe if you choose this route it's better to go a Hybrid of Ramuh/Phoenix to make Locke a balanced and well-rounded party member.

 

Stamina (Kirin) Build- (A-)- Shockingly a great build despite Locke's magic list having no synnergy with Stamina due to Omega/Valiance combo working so extremely well with this build. Locke can provide very consistent high damage with this tanky build using those 2 weapons and make incredible use of his Drain magic, while saving his precious MP for Healing and Life 2 spells playing the role of support in the mean time. Not quite as good as Stam Terra but damn close.

 

Magic (Phoenix) Build- (A) Same HP as Kirin, replacing Stamina for MP. The end result is a Locke with massive magical reservoirs able to burst down bosses with Double Fire 3s and Bolt 2s  both very common weaknesses while having plenty of HP for reliable healing. The sheer amount of damage that he is capable of coupled with the ability to perform actions such as Double Life 2 makes Phoenix Locke one of the most impactful players of the game. Granted, Stamina Locke can do this exact same thing but Phoenix Locke is a bit better because the massive MP boost allows the player to be much more liberal with his magic and negates the need for MP support.

Edgar: 

Vigor Golem/Palidor mix (B+): Fantastic Spear damage with Dragon Helm consecutive attacks and tools and with the auto-crossbow buff really impressive Random Encounter wave clear potential. Can apply strong Golem summon support, but has weak Cure 2s, Mana Battery and Defib support with this build which prevents him from being an A level

Magic Siren Build- (A-)- The speed coupled with Magic really makes Edgar shine being able to provide constant HUGE MP boosts, Defib revivals that can come quite close to Life 2, Flash Damage for randoms and massively powerful Cure 2s. He has surprisingly high damage for bosses due to his selection of elemental sword jumping (and 50% proc rate from Dragon Soul) allowing him to utilize his high magic to hit enemy weaknesses.  A very well rounded hero who misses out on A status due to frailty especially when compared to HP focused Terra/Locke builds that can do similar things to Edgar. Golem summons are also mediocre on this build.

Unicorn Edgar-(D+)- Low speed/Magic/Vigor means weak and slow healing and damage. Has high HP/Magic and status resistance and will be Edgar's best Golem summon build, but why do this when you could do a Golem Edgar, giving you ALMOST as much HP and having useful Vigor so you're a Tank who also has a cannon to fire rather than an unarmed tank?

Sabin:

Golem Build (B-)- Pretty good damage when striking weaknesses with double claws, reliable Bum Rush and still has good Mantra/Chakra/Golem summon support skills. Cannot justify an A placement due to weak defenses secondary to a lack of shield on top of needing front row for full effectiveness, which makes him a lot less of a tank than one would imagine. He also has no revival skills. Sabin's natural access to a plethora of status options and spammable AoE keeps this in the B range, but if I was not factoring that in I might have gone C+

Stray Build (C-)- Stamina does a surprisingly poor job of fueling Chakra/Mantra, and Aurabolt is simply too weak. Like above, Sabin's other talents not related to Esper growth really help remedy this, but it's still mediocre and I find myself consistently disappointed with this build every time I tried it.

Terrato Build (B+)- IMO Sabin's best option, he's probably the only character who can truly build all HP and still dish out numbers that are high enough for him to stay relevant. This is due to his naturally exceptional Vigor and how Mantra, Drain and Golem scale so tremendously well with HP. He still suffers from Golem's weak defense issue, but no matter what with 3,000+ HP he won't be going down easy. He can brush off 1,000+ damage hits with ease and use Drain to restore it all back and go right back supporting and attacking. Incredible Golem support with sky high HP. This Sabin is not A because his damage is sub-par, he has no revival skills and Mantra is a much less reliable healing skill to Cure and Regen magic.

Celes:

Vigor Build (B)- Ramuh with a relatively even mix of Alexander can make for a tanky and reliable hard hitting build. Only having access to Life 1 and Cure 2 without a magic investment makes her fairly average for supporting.

Magic Build (Either Shiva or Siren mixed with Seraph)- (A-) - I personally prefer Shiva but I feel either one is viable. Cure 2 is now strong enough for reliably healing and magic offense with Shiva can be competitive with a Morphed Terra.  Illumina doesn't lose out much due to Holy Procs here either. She lacks the elemental diversity and spell selection of Terra and revival potential of Locke. She still fits A tier here due to ??? for MP free random AoE giving her an advantage and the extremely powerful although Niche Merton Spam set up. With MP support and Flame protecting gear for the team she can obliterate battles and keep the team healed at the same time. It's an incredible combo that no one else can pull off

Crusader Build (Stamina/Speed) -(B+) ??? Spammer. Really inspiring damage, great regen ticks, can maintain backrow safety and support when necessary. Lack of Runic is rarely an issue and no HP investment isn't so bad due to backrow/shield and high Stam for mag defense and status resistance. Suffers from same issue as Vigor, poorer magic/mp means less support capability.

Cyan:

Vigor Build (B+)- Bismarck with a relatively even mix of Alexander. A MASSIVE damage dealer with Tempest but even with the Alexander investment front row + no shield can take it's toll. Fortunately access to Empowerer means the enemy really needs to kill him before he can get his next turn. Poor party support/healing, very much a one trick pony. Can function as a "field medic" for long dungeons extremely well.

Stamina Build (C+)- This build seems a lot better early before Tempest and Alexander becomes available, making dungeons very manageable with AoE Eclipse and limitless Cures and Lifes saving you on item costs. The criterion of this tier list is late-game though, and late game he is tank with relatively poor damage/healing output

Shadow:

B+ Not going to bother distinguishing these builds. He has extremely valuable Haste X and Fenrir support coupled with being a powerful glass cannon damage. Interceptor and high evasion gives him a great edge over Gau. I personally wouldn't put him as an A since he falls too easily in battle and lacks healing abilities. Excellent in a tanky team to provide much needed HasteX support and damage.

Gau:

Speed Build- B- Gau is the only person I'd even consider doing pure speed with since he will act automatically so the speed never feels wasted. His DPS is hilarious with Dragon and Cerberus here. Like Shadow he can provide HasteX and Fenrir support. To me, Shadow is superior due to his controllability and access to the AoE and blink support of Shrurikens and scrolls. Sure, Gau in theory has MUCH more options than Shadow, but because he is locked into a rage and 1/3 of the time you don't get the action you want, I simply find Shadow more useful.  Speed Gau still has to remain in B tier since he can shut down even end-game bosses before they can wipe out the party, provided he can stay alive in the front row!

Stamina Gau (C+)- Another example of an early bloomer. Lower DPS takes away Gau's boss wrecking prowess a bit, though he is more likely to stay alive here. The bonus of being able to heal with certain rages is far too unreliable to be useful for my tastes. He makes for an excellent random clearer but not super helpful in boss fights after setting up HasteX and Fenrir

Relm:

Zoneseek Build (B+)- Osmose, high MP and powerful healing and damage but lacks revival and falls quite easily in battle

Starlet Build- (D)-Regen X is nice I guess? Murdering Shadow to give her interceptor?  This need helps

Speed Build: (B)- A better option to Starlet, mixed with Bahamut for MP levels it's not too bad. Lower magic power and higher turn rate however will translate to huge MP guzzling, will require MP support and use of Sketch to stretch her ability out. Can be a speed healer with brushes

Strago:

Magic Build- (B+) Osmose and massive magic damage, decent elemental options. Cure 3/RegenX replaced with Holy Wind which is less reliable in general. Amazing support options compared to his granddaughter

Stamina Build- (C)- Stamina synergizes with nothing at all for Strago, even Relm at least has Regen X. It does VERY indirectly help his supporting ability by keeping him alive with regen and stat resistance, but Magic Strago can support as well while still maintaining the option to nuke enemies hard with insane magic damage. I'm not really feeling this one.

Setzer:

Magic Build- A- Once you master slots, and with pausing the game isn't that difficult, Setzer is god like. You might never even need to his magic, his healing and offense is reliable and powerful. Seraph is an excellent support Esper that I forgot to mention with Celes which helps to make up for his lack of life spells. Seraph levels can be used to improve his tankiness though I feel the MP bonus is a bit of a waste on him

Stam Build-B+ Gil Toss is great and keeps getting better with each update, though it still pales in comparison to the utility, healing and pure power of Slots. Needs to rely more on his MP for healing this build is really requires some Seraph levels. However, stellar Regen ticks and Stam defenses is a major plus

Mog:

Maduin Mog: B Balanced Healing and Damage and reliable Dances. Dances are unpredictable and may not heal/dmg when you need it.

Magic Mog- B+ More geared toward utilizing his Magic skill and is quite powerful with all damage dances such as Water Rondo. Dances may fail and healing with this is poor. Jumping with elemental rods in conjunction with the high magic stats and proc rate elevates this build above Maduin for me.

Vigor Mog- B a step below Edgar (who is B+) because unlike Vig Edgar who can use the Vigor for his tools, Dance does not synergize at all with Vigor, so you end up basically giving up most of Mog's utility. Mog also does not have elemental swords but rods instead, which don't synnergize as well with Vigor.

 

Tier List Synopsis:

A Tier

A+ : Stamina Terra

A: Phoenix Locke

A-: Maduin Terra, Kirin Locke, Magic Edgar, Magic Celes, Magic Setzer

B Tier

B+: Vigor Edgar, Terrato Sabin, Crusader Celes, Vigor Cyan, Shadow, Gogo (infinite versatlity poor stats), Zoneseek Relm, Magic Strago, Stamina Setzer, Magic Mog

B: Vigor Locke, Vigor Celes, Maduin Mog, Vigor Mog, Speed Relm

B-: Bismarck Terra, Golem Sabin, Speed Gau

C Tier

C+: Stamina Cyan (late game), Stamina Gau (late game)

C: Stamina Strago

C-:  Stamina Sabin

D Tier

 D+:Unicorn Edgar

 D:Stamina Relm

 D-: Umaro (Uncontrollable almost no utility)

Edited by GamingFiend
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Very interesting take on things! Thanks for taking the time to write this all up.

I'd say that there's a pretty clear pattern where you favor magic damage and lack interest in stamina, which is a fairly common outlook. To address a few specific concerns, Aurabolt is getting a damage boost in 1.9 and Relm will pick up Life. Aside from that, the defensive benefits of stamina tend to be a bit more on the... invisible side. Sabin and Strago in particular are able to hit stamina levels high enough to act as a permanent built-in Shell and they will be virtually immune to status ailments - which is a bit more notable now since there's only one Ribbon left in the game. Strago really needs this since, as you mention, he lacks an ability that directly synergizes with stamina. Rather, the point of a stamina build with him is to run him as pure support (which he is more than capable of doing) rather than as a nuker.

1.9 also focuses heavily on the use of stamina for covering and countering, so purely tanky builds like Kirin Cyan and Unicorn Edgar (the latter of which was never really considered to be a significant build in development) will benefit from it.

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Aaaaaaaaaaand......someone opened the can of worms that is tier lists in this mod. Sigh. I've certainly given such an idea thought in the past, but refrained myself from talking about it.

Guess I've got something to keep my busy for the next week or so.

Looking over it quickly, in terms purely of endgame, I can't say I wholly disagree. I do disagree with only factoring in the endgame into a tier list. Really undersells the value of Kirin Cyan, vig Sabin, etc. Still, need to sit down with this one.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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23 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Aaaaaaaaaaand......someone opened the can of worms that is tier lists in this mod. Sigh. I've certainly given such an idea thought in the past, but refrained myself from talking about it.

Guess I've got something to keep my busy for the next week or so.

Looking over it quickly, in terms purely of endgame, I can't say I wholly disagree. I do disagree with only factoring in the endgame into a tier list. Really undersells the value of Kirin Cyan, vig Sabin, etc. Still, need to sit down with this one.

You could make a whole separate one for WoB possibly!

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9 hours ago, BTB said:

Very interesting take on things! Thanks for taking the time to write this all up.

I'd say that there's a pretty clear pattern where you favor magic damage and lack interest in stamina, which is a fairly common outlook. To address a few specific concerns, Aurabolt is getting a damage boost in 1.9 and Relm will pick up Life. Aside from that, the defensive benefits of stamina tend to be a bit more on the... invisible side. Sabin and Strago in particular are able to hit stamina levels high enough to act as a permanent built-in Shell and they will be virtually immune to status ailments - which is a bit more notable now since there's only one Ribbon left in the game. Strago really needs this since, as you mention, he lacks an ability that directly synergizes with stamina. Rather, the point of a stamina build with him is to run him as pure support (which he is more than capable of doing) rather than as a nuker.

1.9 also focuses heavily on the use of stamina for covering and countering, so purely tanky builds like Kirin Cyan and Unicorn Edgar (the latter of which was never really considered to be a significant build in development) will benefit from it.

Generally I did rank Stamina lower I noticed too, although I felt Stamina builds for Terra and Locke in particular were top notch. I am a bit speculative about going pure Stam +2 over Hp+30/ Stam +1 a lot of times simply because Stamina goes so well with HP, and how effective really is magic defense and massive regen ticks without a big hp pool to back it up? I certainly find that Strago would be incredible if Odin was a Hp/Stam and in Sabin case if you mix in Terrato Levels he can already do that anyway. I'm glad Aurabolt will be stronger that is certainly going to help his cause :)

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I'm surprised that Sabin is ranked so highly. In the WoB I feel like Stam Cyan is usually better (Better tank, early Bushidos > early Blitzes IMO, good healer). In the WoR I feel like Sabin's physical damage is good, but is it that much better than, say, Vig or Hybrid Edgar, or Vig Cyan?

I know he can element-snipe, but I often found the elements to be a liability about as often as they were an asset. He's honestly been one of my less played characters.

I voted for Edgar. I only just got everyone back in the WoR, so I'm not "end game" yet. But my MVP is pretty close between Edgar, Terra, and Cyan. (Stam) Cyan hasn't really started waning yet, like everyone says he does, but he's not nearly as versatile as the other two. Edgar has just been freaking solid the whole game. I did all Golem levels in WoB and I'm doing all Siren in WoR, so he has transitioned smoothly from Dragooning to playing more support (but still doing decent damage with Chainsaw and Drill).

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